averagefellar,
I have yet to you exegete that assertion from scripture. I don't want to hear how you and some of your closest friends believe alike, I want Gods Word. That isn't redemption by any definition I have seen. What you put forth is that the death of Christ saved none. It only made all men salvable, actual salvation being according to mans whimsical choices. You deny the vicarious nature of the atonement and therefore limit it's power.
It is not redeemption by your definition. As yet you have not shown that the Apostles taught redemption with your meaning.
I believe I stated before that He saved every single human being. He did the exact opposite of what
Adam did in the fall. I listed the texts before however here they are. They stand on their own, It is really plain English, you don't even need the Greek. By the way, ALL in Greek does not mean "some".
II Cor 5:14-19; Col 1:15-20, John 5:28-29, Rom 5:14-19, I Cor 15:20-22. John 12:32, Acts 24:15, Acts 23:6.
actual salvation being according to mans whimsical choices. You deny the vicarious nature of the atonement and therefore limit it's power.
Yes, man's individual salvation is dependent on his own choice. It is what will save you or condemn you in eternity. My definition of atonement does not limit it extent nor power thereof. He redeemed all of mankind. His atonement paid the penalty of every man's sin, namely spiritual death. That is the only death that remains. Christ overcame the physcial death for all of mankind as well. We still die, but it is a passing from mortality to immortality. Life to all. See the texts above.
Then why do people still die? Did Adam need salvation prior to the fall? If man is has been returned to his pre-adamic state, every man is already in communion with God.
Yes, Adam was in the process of salvation. He was neither created mortal nor immortal. If he had stayed working with God to the end he would have attained immortality. He was created to do a job. Man still has that purpose. God did not change the reason He created us. If He did, I need scripture to show that God's purpose was changed. Also that man's essence was changed, which you are also alluding.
People die because God did not change the condition of this world at this time. Man still dies, has a physical death but it is simply a passage to eternity. Death actually terminates man's sinful nature. He does not take corruptibleness into heaven with him. Christ overcame and paid the penalty of our sins which is spiritual death. Unless we believe, we will die. Ah, sounds so much like the commandment He gave to Adam. Must be a correlation.
The pre-Adamic state is to have the choice. Before Christ we were eternally condemned to die physically, and spiritually. We have been restored to the ability to fulfill the commandment of our created purpose.
That is not the definition of redeemed.
It may not be yours, but it is both scriptural and answers your printed definition. It fulfills all but the 9th and 11th which do not apply.
In your view, Christ only made a way for you to be "1.purchased back to Himself." The death of Christ didn't actual "2.repurchase" anybody, but only made the way to God possible. I only allows for one to chioose to "3.rescue" themselves. Jesus didn't actually "4.compensate" for sin, but only for the fall. We were not "5.freed" from our sinful natures as man still has a propensity for evil, nor, in your view, did the death of Christ actually "5.free" anybody from eternal punishment. You deny that Christ's death was a vicarious sacrifice because it did not "6.pay the penalty" of anything. man is left to himself to deal with his sins. It surely didn't actually "7. save" anybody, only made men salvable. I hope you understand the error here in your definition.
You are the one that is trying to limit the work of Christ. He paid the price for every single human being. Scriptually known as the LOST.
It did make Union with God possible but that was the purpose of Christ's work. To have man back into Union with Him in order to fulfill his created purpose. If Christ is going to do for God what man was specifcially created to perform, why create man in the first place. God created man for companionship. God is communal. That is why he created man to be so. But He also created man with a will to love Him freely. Not under complusion, then why create. I can make anything love me if I am able to control the loving, right? The best example is marriage. I like to see you control the love of your spouse. Only your partner can control their own love, not that of the other. If you could control it, it would not be love.
We were not freed from our sinful natures. I like to see you prove both from scripture and reality that this is even romotely a possibility. The is the war that Paul speaks about between man's flesh and his spirit. It is up to us and using the Grace God gives to us to remain IN Christ and to prevail in keeping the spirit over the flesh.
He saved man from eternal punishment but that is a choice all men make.
Then we all die, because at one time, we were all unbelievers. Since Christ didn't actually atone for this sin, all men perish by it's commission.
I have no understanding of what you are trying to say here. It makes absolutely no sense.
Read, John 3:18. If every man believed, none would die. Whether man, today, after Christ, dies spiritually is up to him.
Once again, you misrepresent reformed beliefs. I truly hope you take to learning what you teach against. Nobody here denies that we make choices. We deny that we make them from a free-will. We also believe those wills are forever linked to our nature, which affects how we make decisions.
Could you offer a passage that says man has free-will, please?
Man's will is always free. It is independent of Gods will. It is never bound in any way by God. You just want God to take the responsibility for what man does, Christ redeemed our natures from the bondage of death which held us captive. The way we use that will, our person, each person uses their will differently. The essence of man, his nature is the same for all of us. We are identical. However, how we use it, or the agency of that will has been freed because our nature, by the Incarnation.
So I can assume that you do not really believe in the Incarnation. That Christ redeemed mankind. He cannot redeem only a portion or some. Again, if He in fact did this, then part of the universe was redeemed as well, but which part. Can you explain from scripture.
Do the converse for me. Show from scripture that man does not have a free will?
