Joe k said:J_Edwards said:
Yes JoeK, Paul read the OT and thus made his argument in Galatians 4! Additionally, in the OT you will see that Israel – all Israel (lost and saved) – received MANY blessings. Just because Israel was blessed on MANY occasions does not make them ALL saved (Rom. 2:28-29; 9:6). Many received far more than sun and rain – they received Hell as their just reward! It was in Issac’s seed, not Ishamel’s, that God kept his promise of an everlasting covenant (Gen. 26:3-4). God kept his promise to Abraham, but Ishmael was a reprobate – he did not keep the whole law. The line that was of Hagar symbolizes that which was lost.
Joe, I am specifically talking about Ishmael. According to your reasoning, Joseph's brothers were reprobate then. WHich cannot be determined.
The seed, Christ, is what God promised through Isaac. But this cannot directly mean Ishmael is reprobate. His word will stand in Isaac and not Ishmae. The Lord doesn't take time out to bless evil people and give them a fatherhood status of nations. It cannot happen.
So you and Ra are wrong on this one. Abandoning the covenant community does not equal reprobation!!! SInce God told him to leave.
It was said "God was with the Lad" God is not with the reprobate. So Paul and the author of hebrews did not have any other info than we have, and did not exegegte the genesis account any better...
JoeK,
Both in the OT and the NT it has been shown to you that Ishmael is various ways was not saved, but
reprobate. If you choose not to listen to Paul’s argument (which you have not refuted) and disavow any knowledge of the OT then … the JoeK philosophy might be digestible. However, Ishmael being fathered by Abraham does not make him a Christian. However, as JB says, “And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham” (Matt. 3:9).
As far as your philosophy that,
The Lord doesn't take time out to bless evil people and give them a fatherhood status of nations. It cannot happen.
Who do you think is in charge of the world? God has a little bit to say about your assumptions:
Isaiah 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure
Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Romans 9:17-18 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
You may also desire to study the reprobate Cain: “And Cain went out from the presence of Jehovah, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch:
and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch” (Gen. 4:16-17).
In addition, Ishmael did much more than just abandon the covenant community – he was its enemy as Psalm 83 clearly shows. Moreover, John says, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us” (1 John 2:19).
And to your statement, “It was said "God was with the Lad" God is not with the reprobate.” Are we to assume that Balaam’s ass was saved? God can be “with people” and animals and the soul still be lost, or one not even have a soul that can be saved…... (compare, Heb. 6:1-6). "The Lord is good to all" we read in Psalm 145:9. God is "kind unto the unthankful and to the evil" (Luke 6:35). God "blessed" reprobate Ishmael (Gen 17:20) and is "longsuffering" to the vessels of wrath (Rom. 9:22) who despise his goodness and forbearance (Rom. 2:4). Indeed, it is their unthankfulness for genuine favours that renders them so guilty (Rom. 1:21).
You say God is “not with the reprobate,” however you may desire to more fully understand how Israel was put into exile? Who raised up these exile kings over Israel (Babylon and Assyria)?
Back to your immediate comment, did you notice the text said he was with “the lad?” What about when he became an adult and was living outside the covenant? Your text is merely evidence of “the lad’s” understanding of the covenant and latter apostasy!
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