Ok now we can actually (hopefully) have fruitful debate. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/clapping.gif" alt="clapping" title="clapping[/img] Thanks for using scripture, you were really starting to scare me with all of your answers that had no scriptural basis. Unfortunately, though, the scripture you use here is out of context, and I will show you why.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]No, I said once we choose him He can then regenerate us. We have to walk through that door. He can open it. He can even have a valeh driver and a doorman (his angels) but He can not put us through that door. I won't reply to your confusion since it held a piece of mistaken assumption of what I believe. What have I chosen that is not right? You can cite the whole Bible but if you read it wrong whom are you really reading it for? You say I have not shown you how but have I not commented on each verse you reference? How have I not shown you how? I am speaking just letting the Holy Spirit flow out.
I apologize if you think that i mistakenly assumed what you believed. I still stand firm in what I said though. You say that I misread scripture. If that is the case, show me how the scripture that I gave you means something else. I am ready and willing to listen. You ask "How have I not shown you how?" Just as I said, you have not shown me how, in that you haven't commented on the scripture. I don't think I can answer that any more clearly.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]You said it infers information which isn't stated and that is not even hinted in the Bible? What is does it infer that isn't stated? What is not hinted in the Bible? You keep asking for where is it shown in the Bible. It is shown in the Bible. See John 1.12-13.
It says RECEIVE
First receive before believing. He gave power to these who believe.
In all of scripture it will either talk about man's responsibility in salvation, God's election in salvation, or both. The word 'power' there is the greek word exousia. It can be rightly translated as authority, power, or right. I have no problem with this scripture. He gives the right to become children of God to those who receive them, even those that believe in His name. You say that receiving comes before believing, but notice the syntax:
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."
"To those..." is an infinitive, it denotes that something is happening and that it happens to somebody or something. In this case the thing happening is that God is giving the right, authority, power to become sons of God. To whom is it happening? "As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name." See? The infinitive occurs twice and describes the same thing. The second time simply expounds on the first.
Ok, moving on...
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Why these?
foreknew they would receive
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
This one really baffles me. Here I will post some more of this scripture so we can get some context:
1. I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3. 'Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.' 4. But what is the devine response to him? 'I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to baal.' 5. In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. 6. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8. just as it is written, 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.' 9. And David says, 'Let their table become a snare and a trap, and a stumbling block and a retribution to them. 10. Let their eyes be darkened to see not, and bend their backs forever.'"
I don't think you could have chosen a better scripture to put out of context than this one, Troy. Notice that the scripture goes on to say that God kept for Himself seven thousand men that would not bow the knee to baal. An active role on God's part it shows. Now the same in this present time, a remnant remains according to God's gracious choice. It goes on to expound that those who were chosen obtained it (salvation) and those who were not chosen were hardened. This is not something that man, by nature would like to believe. I, myself, was an Armenian before I even knew what that word meant. When I saw scriptures like this it made me mad, but in the end it came down to either I was going to believe in a god that I created on the basis of what I wanted him to be like, or I would believe in the God that declares Himself in His scriptures.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]You keep looking for evidence. But you should know it already in your heart and spirit. Why don't you is the question that I ponder? I am not so foolish to think Calvins worship a different god but I wish not to believe this. I wish to hope that it is a matter of pride only or calvinistic possession but the longer I speak to folks who hold this view, like conversations with Pentecostals, the more I am of the opinion since they simply can not understand what I am saying begins to lead me to the conclusion that indeed it is becoming no longer a condition of just some pride of salvation and pride of life and vanity of vanities but it is a matter of unsalvation because if you can not understand and it takes this much effort to get you to understand and you still can not understand then what are we really dealing with?
I'll tell you why I don't believe what you believe, as you ponder...because there is no basis for it in scripture. I am still waiting for a valid arguement with scripture. And you are right, sadly Troy, that we worship different gods. As far as it being a matter of pride, I will admit that I am prideful and have many faults. But it is through God's Holy Spirit guiding me in His word that He humbles me. Calvinism doesn't cause pride, but rather it makes us humble. Think about it. If you were chosen before the foundations of the world and God redeems you on no merit of your own but only on the substitutionary redemptive work of His Son Jesus, who bore the full penalty of sin and expreienced the full wrath of God so that you didn't have to...would this make you prideful? It makes me fall to my knees in tears that my God should die for me. I hope that makes more sense to you now. I do know that there are many things in life and in scripture that I have yet to understand, but what I have read has been clear to me. You say I don't understand what we're really dealing with, and I say that I do.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]I should ever expect you to believe what I believe because as 1 Cor. 2.13 says
And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
I was distressed when I first read this that you would declare that I do not have the Holy Spirit. But as I read your post over again, and read the context of the scripture you gave, I soon was relieved from that distress. I have no doubt about the surity and security of my salvation, and I have no doubt of the Holy Spirit being active in my life, weather you think it is or not.
