No problem Kent! I didn't expect you say AHA! CALVIN IS THE MAN!!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!! HOW DID I NOT SEE IT BEFORE!!! laugh

But let me take another stab at it anyway,

I do think man has a role, but look what Augustine says in my signature.

God commands us to repent and believe. We are responsible. Some of us are compelled to do so. Others refuse. Some don't even receive the command, despite the fact that the evidences of God are all around us (and God may call those without perfect or incomplete understanding). And there are some that respond to the message, but they are not pricked in their hearts and the message never penetrates.....


Now back to A & B, before I can answer any further I have to ask you a question:

Is their a process in which one is saved? How does it play out? Is their a radical change in that person? What are the fruits of this change?

See, I don't think you can take a purely technical analysis of something as grand and experiential as the conversion of sinners to God....I don't think we can break it down into a formula.

AC



Originally Posted by KentDMc
AC,

Thank you for the effort of trying to explain. I'm really enjoying this discussion.

I promise that I'm not intentionally being difficult, but I feel the answers you are giving are self-contradictory.

It is reminding me of the world of physics where the rules of quantum physics and rules of macro physics completely disagree with each other. Yet the physicist is fine with this and just picks whichever set of rules he feels best applies to the situation. I'm not comfortable with a theology that assumes man has no role in salvation when talking theology or personal salvation, but diverts from that when talking about evangelism and missions. Just my thoughts at the moment, no insult intended of course.

But where I would direct you first, AC, is back to my first two premisses.

(A)Calvinism believes that a person is predestined to be saved, regardless of that person's actions or the actions of any other persons.
(B)The action that the minister takes of going to witness to the dying man or not will have no bearing on the man's eternal soul.

You said that (A) is true, but (B) is false. That cannot be because (A) and (B) are the same exact premiss. Premiss (B) is simply an application of premiss (A) to the scenario. It would be similar to if I said: (A) All lies are a sin. (B) Lying on your taxes is a sin. They're either both true or both false.

So if you want to be able to disagree with (B) you must change (A). Agree? And you might be able to do so without deviating from Calvinism, which I think is where this conversation should continue.

Last edited by AC.; Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:07 AM.
The mercy of God is necessary not only when a person repents, but even to lead him to repent, Augustine