Originally Posted by KentDMc
Please don't be frustrated with me. I am not purposely being thick headed. I just do not understand your linkings here. Like AC, you seem to be affirming premise A which rejecting premise B.
Let's iterate your two premises:

(A) Calvinism believes that a person is predestined to be saved, regardless of that person's actions or the actions of any other persons.

(B) The action that the minister takes of going to witness to the dying man or not will have no bearing on the man's eternal soul.

So, let's try it again, taking the plain words of each premise.

(A) Yes, Calvinism holds that God determined who would be saved out of Adam's fallen race apart from the individuals to be saved. To put it in a polemic fashion, God didn't "look down the corridors of time" or "peer into the future" to see who would believe on Christ and thus predestinate and elect them. Likewise, God did not consider any individual's character, alleged good deeds, desires, etc., etc., which somehow influenced God to choose them because of what He allegedly saw. I have thoroughly shown any such notions as being a denial of the biblical God elsewhere and myriad times on this board. God predestined/elected who He did based upon nothing other than His own good pleasure and for His own glory. The doctrine is thus rightly called, UNconditional Election".

IF, however, you are meaning that humans are totally uninvolved in salvation, this is a false premise. Obviously, individual humans (sinners) are involved because they are they ones who are to be saved. grin And/or, if you are meaning that Calvinism holds that no means are involved, including other humans, then again, this is an errant understanding.

(B) This again is a totally false premise and hardly contradicts my/our answer to premise (A). I really don't know how to make it any plainer for you. God ordains the end AND the means to that end. There is a plethora of biblical passages which are very clear in teaching this.


Originally Posted by KentDMc
Originally Posted by Pilgrim
(B) The minister's bringing of the Gospel is an integral part of the means which God has ordained to save the elect. I've briefly mentioned this in my first response to you. Again, God has ordained the means as well as the end.

Now here you are denying premise B. And since I'm such a great writer ;P I'll quote myself...

Originally Posted by KentDMc
You said that (A) is true, but (B) is false. That cannot be because (A) and (B) are the same exact premiss. Premiss (B) is simply an application of premiss (A) to the scenario. It would be similar to if I said: (A) All lies are a sin. (B) Lying on your taxes is a sin. They're either both true or both false.

So if you want to be able to disagree with (B) you must change (A). Agree? And you might be able to do so without deviating from Calvinism, which I think is where this conversation should continue.
No, I need not change (A) because it is true. I am disagreeing with your second premise (B) because it is in fact totally false, i.e., it makes no difference whatsoever whether the Gospel is brought to a dying sinner in order for that individual to be saved. The implication, as I am understanding it is... Because God has predestinated certain individuals, it doesn't matter what anyone does because those predestinated will be saved REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY DO! and likewise in regard to those not elected, aka: reprobates. Thus, based upon my understanding of your premise, this again is 100% false. It is through means ordained by God that salvation is brought to sinners. The most vivid paradigm of this principle; God's sovereignty and man's responsibility and involvement is seen in the crucifixion of the Lord Christ, Acts 2:22-24; 3:18; 4:26-28. Are you familiar with these inspired words of Peter?

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simul iustus et peccator

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