Originally Posted by Pilgrim
3. Re: Newman's illustration, unfortunately it doesn't represent the reality of the situation. It isn't that the human race has jumped into the ocean and without a life preserver they would all surely drown. To go with the scenario, the biblical teaching is that the entire human race has already drowned and is lying on the bottom of the ocean DEAD. There is no "life preserver" in existence that could possibly save them. They are stone dead. But God, Who is rich in mercy and grace resurrects some to life (regeneration) and leaves the rest.
My illustration (of drowning) was a slight modification of an illustration used by a staunch Reformed guy to explain such things to me. If you prefer to weave total depravity into the illustration, that's certainly fine, and it doesn't seem to me to alter the main point. Again, its another distinction without a difference, as far as I can tell. Whether at the bottom of the ocean, drowned and dead, or at the top, certain to drown and die, it remains that God chooses to save some from eternal torment and chooses not to save some from eternal torment. With the former, He chooses not to resurrect some to life (and therefore from eternal torment.) With the latter He chooses not to save some persons from drowning (and therefore from eternal torment.)

In either case, God chooses some for eternal torment, though Calvinists (at least in my experience) prefer to use phrases like "God passes by" or "God leaves" instead of "God chooses," and understandably so.

Last edited by Newman; Wed May 25, 2011 6:01 PM.