The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum MRs Interview with Rick Warren

Recently I received the most recent edition of Modern Reformation magazine.
One article that caught my eye was called ‘An Interview with Rick Warren’ A Purpose Driven Phenomena
I must say that the article was not what I expected; I had heard that Rick Warren was an Arminian. But according to him he holds to the five solas and is an avid reader of Modern Reformation, as well as a fan of Reformed leaders such as RC Sproul, Dr. Michael Horton, Mark Talbot, etc... He made it quite clear that he was a Calvinist.
I was also quite surprised at what SaddleBack Church requires of its members.
This is not of course an endorsement of Rick Warren, nor because of it am I about to go out and buy the book ‘The Purpose Driven Life’, but it has made me rethink a few issues about what I was told about Rick Warren. Some of these things would seem to fly in the face of what I was told. (Don’t think any of these things were said on the Highway)
I would be interested in getting some feedback about the interview itself. It can be found at:
http://www.christianity.com/partner/Arti...1694210,00.html
Here is one excerpt of the interview.
MR: Does the "Forty Days of Purpose" campaign reflect any particular theological stance or is it theologically neutral?
RW: It is impossible to be theologically neutral. However, it is possible to love, respect, and appreciate the ministry of godly brothers who have theological differences with you. On earth we "see through a glass darkly" so we all need a large dose of humility in dealing with our differences. God's ways are awesome and far beyond human mental capabilities. He has no problem reconciling the supposed theological conflicts that we debate when ideas don't fit neatly into our logical, rational systems (Isa. 58:8-9).
Theologically, I am a monergist and firmly hold to the five solas of the Reformation. It's pretty obvious from the book that I believe in foreknowledge, predestination, (see chapter two, "You Are Not An Accident") and, especially, concurrence -- that God works in and through every detail of our lives, even our sinful choices, to cause his purposes to prevail. Proverbs 19:21 (NIV) is one of my life verses.
But rather than categorize myself with a theological label, I want to be known -- like Jesus -- as "a friend of sinners" and -- like Paul -- as simply "a servant of Jesus Christ." In the past sixteen years, God has allowed me the privilege of helping encourage and train over 300,000 evangelical pastors from a wide spectrum of denominations and 137 different countries. (I am aware that some of my Reformed brothers believe that only they have the right to legitimately be called "evangelicals," and I playfully disagree.)
It's been fascinating to see how people interpret my book through their own theological lenses. On the same day this week I received an email from a Presbyterian brother accusing me of "being an Arminian" and another email from a Lutheran brother criticizing me for being "too Calvinistic!" I just remind myself that even Jesus could not please everyone, and I refocus on living for an audience of One. I'm a fourth-generation Baptist pastor. My great grandfather was led to Christ by Charles Spurgeon, attended Spurgeon's college, and was sent by Spurgeon to America to pastor. So I guess God predestined me to be a Baptist! I would ask readers for grace in three areas:
First, the book contains much of what I believe, but is does not contain ALL of what I believe about any particular doctrine. I actually removed over 400 pages of material that I wrote, but decided not to include. Exhaustive studies exhaust people. The book is a devotional, not a dissertation.
Second, the book is not intended to be a systematic theology. Saddleback's systematic theology is another book called Foundations. It is a nine month doctrinal course, written by Pastor Tom Holladay and my wife Kay, for our congregation. To my knowledge, Saddleback may be the only church in America that requires a nine month systematic theology course for anyone who wants to serve on our staff or as a lay leader in our church. Over 5,000 members have completed Foundations in the past ten years, and we have over 3,000 more members studying the course right now. Saddleback members are doctrinally astute.
Third, the book is about the Christian's walk, not justification. I did include a simple call to Christ in case unbelievers picked up the book (which thousands have). But to know my full view of the doctrines of grace, you'd need to have heard my two year, verse-by-verse exposition through Romans. We've gone through Romans twice since I started Saddleback.

Tom

I was just listening to Dr, Albert Mohler (Reformed Baptist)speak briefly to the subject of Warren's book.
What he said basically was that it had a lot of good things to say, but it doesn't go far enough.

However if I understand what Warren said in the interview, he would agree with Mohler on that point, because the course is only a 6 week tool. He also says the book is a "devotional not a dissertation".
It wasn't intended to be a systematic theology, Saddleback's systematic is another book called "Foundations".
Again this isn't an endorsement, it is just a few observations, coming from a limited perspective.

Tom,

RW may claim to be a Calvinist and embrace the 5 solas, but that does not make him reformed. Anyone who would have "seeker sensitive church" services and neglect their membership, who by the way do not have regular worship on the Sabbath, but another day of the week, is not reformed. Have you ever experienced a "seeker" church service RW style?

These observations from newspaper clippings describe the preaching in user-friendly churches:

• "There is no fire and brimstone here... Just practical, witty messages."

• "Services at [the church featured in the article] have an informal feeling. You won't hear people threatened with hell or referred to as sinners. The goal is to make them feel welcome, not drive them away."

• "As with all clergymen [this pastor's] answer is God– but he slips Him in at the end, and even then doesn't get heavy. No ranting, no raving. No fire, no brimstone. He doesn't even use the H-word. Call it Light Gospel. It has the same salvation as the Old Time Religion, but with a third less guilt."

• "The sermons are relevant, upbeat, and best of all, short. You won't hear a lot of preaching about sin and damnation, and hell fire. Preaching here doesn't sound like preaching. It is sophisticated, urbane, and friendly talk. It breaks all the stereotypes."

• "[The pastor] is preaching a very upbeat message... It's a salvationist message, but the idea is not so much being saved from the fires of hell. Rather, it's being saved from meaninglessness and aimlessness in this life. It's more of a soft-sell."

So the new rules may be summed like this:

Be clever, informal, positive, brief, friendly, and never, never use the H-word.

I know of a little ol' church in Ohio that requires a 3 year systematic theology course. . . <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Read Warren's book the Purpose Driven Church, or just read the first 2 or 3 chapters. Then come back and give us his definition of what a church is.

Those who have read him, would you agree that everything is subordinate to his idea of what a church is and does?

I would like to know what the 9 month systematic theology course says myself; but, to be in leadership (now it has been a while since I read his book) you would have to be in the inner circle of the church (he had a diagram in his book where it shows that his church is made up of 5 or so levels.)

This is interesting! Does the church seem to grow well? Does it show some stability in the members?...what can you tell me about this church.........

Yes. The church is growing in grace and truth and in numbers, however the numerical growth would seem insignificant next to the Willow Creek/Saddleback growth patterns.


I am referring to the church that we moved from when we came to IL. The church is almost 7 years old and the membership is extremely stable. Almost 90% of the men are involved in the doctrinal study. And almost as many women are also involved in doctrinal study.

There are those who come and visit and enjoy the loving fellowship of the church who eventually leave without joining once they discern that "we are not just playing church." The church takes accountability of members and leadership very seriously. It is by no means a perfect church. It grieves me to tell you that this Sunday the regular two services have been set aside and one congregational service has been planned because the Pastor and Elders will be exercising a very necessary disciplinary action with one who is on staff in a teaching position. It is a moral, personal failing, and affects the church directly, so it is to be addressed corporately. "If we try to hide things under the carpet, people will stumble," is one of Pastor's strong beliefs so sin is dealt with head-on, no matter how difficult that is.

It is a solidly reformed, confessing Grace Brethren Church (sounds like an oxymoron, eh?) Worship style is traditional and moving toward regulative.

One of the neatest things about this church is the percentage of involvement. Before you join the church, you know that service is expected of all, no matter how big or small, and that faithfulness is expected as well. After the Pastor and elders interview prospective members, the question is: "Now you've had a chance to think and pray about it, where might you use your gifts and talents?"

The involvement of many in the activities of the church, whether it is cleaning the bathrooms, setting up chairs, or teaching a Sunday School class, brings about a wonderful atmosphere of caring for each other.

If you have any other questions, I would be glad to answer.

This sounds absolutely fantastic. IMHO this sound like legitimate growth as compared to the Wilow Creek Saddleback types.........I would be interested in their Systematic Program they have established and how they teach it. If you could provide me (1) either with the material (I am assuming here it may be in MS Word so you could send an e-mail), or (2) give me an e-mail so I may contact them. Thanks again for your post. It is good to see some good churches thriving in truth!!!

Tom,

I’ve read Rick Warren’s “The Purpose Driven Church” and truly believe that some positive statements could be said about some of the material in it. Unfornately I get the feeling that Rick uses Scripture to support his preconceived ideas rather than shape them. For example he may say he agrees with Calvinistic theology but does his practice prove or disprove those words? Does his definition of the church’s purpose agree with the marks of a true church?

Kim Riddlebarger has written an interesting article on the church growth movement and its change in focus. Rick Warren and many others in this movement have truly tried to change the focus and purpose of the church.

Here are some excerpts from his article:Some Thoughts on Church Growth from a Reformed Perspective by Kim Riddlebarger

While Warren’s book does offer some practical tips for making a church larger, it fails to expound the foundational theological truths that make a church more biblical. Because it overemphasizes the felt needs of unbelievers and de-emphasizes the priority of clear biblical teaching, The Purpose-Driven Church seems to be driven by the wrong purpose—namely, a man-centered desire for acceptance and influence rather than a God-centered affinity for truth.

The Purpose-Driven Church by Nathan Busenitz


Wes

Wes

Did you see how Rick Warren answered the first question by MR?
If I hadn't read articles such as the one you provided, I would probably not even question what he said.

One thing that is clear to me, is that regardless of the truth of the matter, Rick Warren has himself to blame. If so many people read his book and come out with so many different conclusions, there must be a problem.

Tom

I have to admit, what you wrote sure flies in the face of the message that Rick Warren gave in the article.

I am wondering, if you were the person that was interviewing Rick Warren, what questions would you ask him?

Tom

I was thinking more about "legitimate" growth. Yes, in some respects this is true growth; committed believers committed to serving together and loving each other.

However, most of the growth comes from the addition of families who are already Christian and looking for a solid, doctrinally sound church. This also, I believe contributes to the stability of the members. So far, there are few converts being added. This is an area of concern for the Pastor and leaders and a matter of much prayer. It is to be hoped that as the church matures, outreach will increase and souls will be converted under the preaching of the Word.

Yep <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/yep.gif" alt="" /> that's why I provided you with that article by Kim Riddlebarger. I think we all need to examine whether our actions deny what we say we believe.


Wes

Kim,In a day when so many churches are willing to compromise their values to try to imitate church growth its good to see there are those who remain faithful and experience real growth.


Wes

Yes, God is not the author of confusion.