The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Who can be pardoned?

From Spurgeon's sermon on 1 Peter 5:6 On Humbling Ourselves Before God
...I want you to sink so low that you cannot say anything good of yourself; nay, nor see an atom of goodness in yourself. When you look inside your heart and can see nothing but that which would condemn you; when you look at your life and see everything there that deserves wrath; then you are on the road to hope. Come before God a criminal, in the prison dress, with the rope about your neck. You will be saved, then. When you confess that you have nothing of your own but sin--when you acknowledge that you deserve to die, and to be cast away for ever--God in infinite pity will let you live through faith in Christ Jesus. Many years ago a certain prince visited the Spanish galleys, where a large number of convicts were confined, chained to their oars to toil on without relief;--I think nearly all of them condemned to a life sentence. Being a great prince, the King of Spain told him that he might in honor of his visit set free anyone of the galley-slaves he chose. He went down among them to choose his man. He said to one, "Man, how did you come here?" He replied that false witnesses swore away his character. "Ah!" said the prince and passed on. He went to the next who stated that he had done something that was wrong, certainly, but not very much, and that he never ought to have been condemned. "Ah!" said the prince, and again passed on. He went the round, and found that they were all good fellows--all convicted by mistake. At last he came to one who said, "You ask me why I came here. I am ashamed to say that I richly deserve it. I am guilty, I cannot say that I am not; and if I die at this oar, I thoroughly deserve the punishment. In fact, I think it a mercy that my life is spared me." The prince stopped and said, "It is a pity that such a bad fellow as you should be placed amongst such a number of innocent people. I will set you free." You smile at that; but let me make you smile again. My Lord Jesus Christ has come here at this time to set somebody free. He has come here at this time to pardon somebody's sins. Your that have no sins shall have no pardon. You good people shall die in your sins. But, oh, you guilty ones, who humble yourselves under the hand of God my Master thinks that it is a pity that you should be among these self-righteous people. So come right away, and trust your Saviour, and obtain life eternal through His precious blood; and to Him shall be glory for ever and ever. Amen

Dear Susan,

Thanks for that! You know how much I love Spurgeon and the way he gently convicts you admonishes you, and leads you always to the foot of the Cross!Here he overwhelming shows us the truth in "And His mercy endures forever".

In His Hands,

Ruth

Dear Susan:

Thanks for that beautiful post from Spurgeon.

I have been convicted for several days now for having said how "clear" it was to me that Spurgeon was guilty of gluttoney in the exchange with Joe of a few weeks ago. I sent Joe an email asking for his forgiveness yesterday and I do the same to you now who I know rightly loves Spurgeon as do I, and to Pete who told me that what I said wan't clear to him, and to all on the Board, that I offended by my words in this regard.

I spoke carelessly, and then tried to defend my remarks rather than just to admit my error. It has occured to me in the time since this thread that when one is considering such an honored servant of Christ as Spurgeon, it is far wiser to avoid the kind of remarks I made.

As I said in another place, I have been reading J. Adams for guidance in regard to this incident, particularly with respect to confession of sin and other aspects of it. He stresses that one, while confessing his sin to those involved (and first to God) should also not confess, in an emotional response, that which he is not convicted of.

As such, I must in all honesty say that I am not convicted of the things I said about smoking being a sin, at least to me, it is clearly so. Perhaps to Spurgeon it was not. But be that as it may, I am convicted of the unkind and defensive way I responded to Joe's points and I have gone to him to ask his forgiveness and I do so now to you and the board also.

One of the verses that has gone through my mind repeatedly in regard to this whole affair with respect to the sore on my tongue and confessing it all publically, is "many shall see it and fear". If my situation is a correct application of the verse which is from the following from Is 40 as follows, then I do indeed praise Him for His faithfulness, again:


If I have applied those words correctly then I have reason to praise Him for correcting my error and leading me to confess it, and to have brothers and sisters in Christ who have the love, and patience, to correct me.

In Him,

Gerry

Dear Gerry,

Many thanks for posting Isaiah 40, and being transparent in sharing with us how God is working in your life.

In His Grace,


[color:'#FF0000']Psalm 73:25,26 [color:'#0000CC']

Susan,

Thank you for posting Spurgeon. May the Lord humble us, and so mightily use us for His purposes and His glory.


In His Grace,

[color:'#FF0000']Psalm 73:25,26 [color:'#0000CC']

Gerry,
It is always a good sign when we are aware of our own worst enemy! I know I am worse than I will ever realize and that even my prayers and "good works" are defiled and need to be cleansed by the blood of the Lamb. May God give us all a tender conscience to hate our sin more and more.

From J. C. Ryle's Holiness from the Chapter on Sin.


...After all, I am convinced that the greatest proof of the extent and power of sin is the pertinacity with which it cleaves to man even after he is converted and has become the subject of the Holy Ghost's operations. To use the language of the Ninth Article,"This infection of nature doth remain--yea, even in them that are regenerate." So deeply planted are the roots of human corruption, that even after we are born again, renewed, "washed, sanctified, justified," and made living members of Christ, these roots remain alive in the bottom of our hearts, and, like the leprosy in the walls of the house, we never get rid of them until the earthly house of this tabernacle is dissolved. Sin, no doubt, in the believer's heart, has no longer dominion. It is checked, controlled, mortified, and crucified by the expulsive power of the new principle of grace. The life of a believer is a life of victory, and not of failure. But the very struggles which go on within his bosom, the fight that he finds it needful to fight daily, the watchful jealousy which he is obliged to exercise over his inner man, the contest between the flesh and the spirit, the inward "groanings" which no one knows but he who has experienced them--all, all testify to the same great truth, all show the enormous power and vitality of sin. Mighty indeed must that foe be who even when crucified is still alive!

Link to 1st 5 chapters of Holiness
http://www.iserv.net/~mrbill/index.html

Dear Susan:

Thank you for your kind and loving words and from the quote from, and link to Ryle. It was a help and encouragement, and is much appreciated, as it made me feel that perhaps there is still hope. I have tried to cling to the scripture that tells us He chastens his true children, as well as to others that speak, as did Ryle of remaining sin.

In Him,

G

Susan - That was a great quote...I forwarded it to a coworker who finds such writings (especially the ones I've sent him from Puritans) to be too self-loathing. He says that's the problem with the Reformers (and people like me) ... Yet, he's OK with the abject asceticism of the Romanists of old. Hmmmm...

I got a question for everyone. I hope it's not too off topic. It's an issue that my pastor has been hammering for years in our Church....mentioned it again this morn...during last week's Sunday school...and our most recent home visit as well. And it's this.

Do Spurgeon's quotes (like this one)...and many Christian 'self-help' books go about the whole idea of walking in sanctification in a somewhat backwards manner?

What I mean is...are we supposed to reflect on ourselves from a negative and lowly point of view (despite being FULLY justified by grace thru faith) and try to 'get with the program'...as though we all start from the bottom (like pond scum) and then try to scale the ladder of sanctification (with the Spirit's cooperative help of course) in order to please God? That we need to be 'brought low' before we can fully appreciate our blessed state in Christ? That there's profit in feeling like dirt by taking stock in our own shortcomings?

My wife's got shelves of these self-help books and they consistently leave her feeling defeated. Fortunately she knows Christ had completed all the work needed for life everlasting and that by faith she appropriates His righteousness. But nevertheless, these books make her feel bad about herself, at least initially. They convict and reconvict...bringing to mind sins already forgiven. Continuously reminder her of her wretched state.

Is this the Biblical model for an already redeemed person?

What do you make of my pastor's approach?

The Bible declares us as 'saint's...already seated in the heavenlies with Christ .... so we don't start as 'scum'...needing to pull ourselves by our boot straps and climb that ladder of sanctification...but instead, we START at the top of ladder ...right there next to Christ Himself.....and are encouraged to LIVE LIKE IT. We ought not become discouraged 'looking up' as though a prize awaits IF we overcome .... but are to be encouraged 'looking down' knowing the prize has already been won by Christ on our behalf.

See the difference?

We don't take the attitude of having to scale a self-help ladder in order to 'measure up'...we are already at the TOP of the ladder and are told to LIVE LIKE IT....to live like a redeemed people, showing ourselves approved. Yes, self examine...as the Bible declares...but KNOW that we are full citizens, soujorners merely passing thru another kingdom.

Our life is about pleasing God by "living the part"....not fretting about "getting the part."

Am I making any sense?

Do we BEGIN by seeing ouselves as polluted sinners (which we are in practice) struggling with sanctification in an attempt to become something we erroneously believe we're not ....or do we BEGIN with seeing ourselves for what we really ARE, (positionally sinless, seated next to Christ) and make every attempt to live what we really are...to become what we already are?

"Self-help" model says...we were given a ticket to the Ball ...but we need to work to become princes and princesses. Get with the program.

Pastor's model says...we start as princes and princesses...now go live the part (and prove it).

blessings,

Why does it have to be "either/or" and not "both/and"?

It seems to me that Scripture upholds BOTH. In Eph. 1 thru 3, Paul reveals the eternal plan of God to reconcile to Himself a people who He intended to be "holy and without blame before Him", etc. (our present justification & our future glorification) AND in chapters 4-6, we learn of our odious depravity and the challenge to put off the "old man" and put on the "new man". (the necessity and way of sanctification) We see this pattern in nearly all of Paul's Epistles. Perhaps another example. In Rom. 1 thru 7 we see the incomprehensible depth of our depravity and lingering sin. And in chapters 8-16, the glory of our justification and the freedom it brings to those in Christ, in Whom there is no longer condemnation.

Even the Ten Commandments display the same pattern, for God first, in the prologue declares Himself to be the One who brought Israel out of the bondage of Egypt (symbolic of our bondage in sin) and into the freedom of the promised (symbolic of the kingdom of God). It is AFTER we are reminded from whence we came does He then set forth the way in which we are to live before Him and with our co-recipients of that redemptive grace.

I also see Paul speaking in terms of this "both/and" pattern, when he, at the very end of his life declares himself to be the "chief of sinners" (1Tim 1:15). Yet, he also speaks of of himself as being one God has shown mercy v. 16.

Perhaps one more example... the Lord Christ came to save "sinners" and not the "righteous". This salvation is an ongoing process and consists of several "steps", as you well know: predestination, election, calling, justification, sanctification and final glorification. It isn't just the unregenerate who are called to repentance and faith, albeit for them it is unto justification. It is equally applicable for believers to repent of their sins and growth in faith of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Self-examination can lead a believer to despair IF one only focuses upon the truth of that sin which remains within us. Never looking inward but only to Christ can lead one into complacency and a shallow faith. So, it is both necessary to see "how great my sins and misery" are... AND.... how inexplicable is the grace which has delivered us from that sin and misery in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Perhaps that is why I so love Luther's little phrase:

<p align="center"><font size="5">[color:"purple"]simul iustus et peccator[/color]</font></p>
In His Grace,

Dear Laz,

How nice to see you again! I agree with Pilgrim! Surprise! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I think it's important to keep a balance, but I object to thinking of us already at "the top of the ladder, beside Christ", as I think that sanctification is a process and we won't reach the "top" until glorification.
Of course, Jesus has already accomplished all for us, but we are "already, but not yet" with Him! Along that line of thinking, I would be afraid of sliding down the ladder and landing in a broken heap at the bottom! I'd rather start at the bottom and slowly move up!(It's where I belong anyway!) <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

In His Hands,

Ruth

Laz,
I think Pilgrim gave you a great answer. We do not want to be so broken that we forget the wonderful blessings and victory we have in Christ and neglect to rejoice in all that is ours in Christ. Yet, we also need to remember how sinful we are so that we will walk humbly with our God and not to think too highly of ourselves, but think of ourselves with sober judgement. We know that if we got what we deserved, we would be condemned eternally.
If we only see one side of this we will get into trouble. If we only think about how awful we are we could become morbid and be totally ineffective and self absorbed.(Martyn Lloyd Jones calls it morbid introspection.) If we only think of our position in the heavenly places, seated with Christ, we might forget we are in a daily battle with the world the flesh and the Devil and not be on guard. But thinking of what Christ has done and our position in Christ gives us great encouragement and hope when we go through difficulties, trials and testings here.

Hi Ruth! Thanks for noticing me. ;-)

You seem more comfortable 'looking up'....and who am I to argue...but let me try anyway. hehe!

You really feel more comfortable at the bottom? It's not like you can add anything or take any credit for any rung you might scale or progress you might make towards improved sanctification? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I gotta ask...doesnt' the Bible explicitly put us 'next to Christ'...seated with Him?

[color:"0000FF"]Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: [/color]

We are "already" in heaven...but "not yet"...yes I agree...but as for being In Christ...we are "in Him" now. Our complete justification and position relative to Christ is already 100%...what's "not yet" is the translation of our physical beings from mortal to immortal...from natural to supernatural. No? What's "already" is Christ's earthly reign NOW...but not yet in the sense that He's gonna return and really clean house. BUt as for us and our position in Christ, it's here, and now and forever more. No?

Let me add...shouldn't we have a heavenly perspective as believers...and less of an earthly one? If so, ought we focus MORE on how God sees and declares us to be spiritually...ie, seated up on ladder with Christ...and secondarily how we see ourselves in this temporal earthly plane (sinners, some more chiefly than others <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />?)

Didn't you watch the Lion King...."....remember who you are!" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I guess my pastor believes that how we see ourselves affects how we go about working out our sanctification. And if so, we should probably see ourselves as God sees us...less so in how we want to see ourselves.

Did you read the Jerry Bridges article on OPEN that's kinda related to this subject? If so, whadja think?



blessings,

Hi Pilgrim - I agree it's both...but even with the reference to the 10 Commandments....we see the indicative and imperative. God saving and declaring....then what we are to do in response.

In this matter....the indicative is to point us first to God and Christ and His work on our behalf (and our subsequent position) ....then the imperataitive to live out of that heavenly existence....to see ourselves FIRST as united with Christ...and therefore, live as people who have been blessed with this awesome adoption.

I'm not disputing the importance of self examination...believing I made that clear....but merely asking about the order of things and which plane should we be viewing this matter from in order to get the best and most helpful perspective. From the earthly vantage point of our sin ...or our spiritual (or God's vantage point In Christ)?

Believe me, I know my depravity all too well...but is THIS how I should see myself first and foremost? I suspect not....

You seem to suggest that since it's "both" (and you are correct...it is both) that it doesn't matter how you slice it... I say it's both also...but one view seems to be more helpful...at least for me, for now, relative to dealing with my sin problems. One views seems to work in the earthly realm....and to work to improve ourselves....the other view seems to work out of the heavenly realm which encourages us to live out of that heavenly existence. Two different sets of motivation.

The Jerry Brigdes article in OPEN sort of talks about this too.

blessings,

Hi Susan...I believe in both the cart and the horse...my point was to ask if in this matter does one belong in front of the other? Of course, but which is the cart...which is the horse?

The Epistles seems all seem to establish us as "saints"...to get that matter straight...to then declare how we got to become saints....rejoice in His work...THEN Paul, Peter...tackle the subject matter. It's like this...instead of law/gospel...the believer gets gospel then law. Good news first...then instruction on right practice.

Blessings,

Well, then it appears we will have to disagree! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> One cannot find comfort in Christ until one sees oneself as God sees us; sinners first, who have been redeemed by the blood of Christ and had His righteousness IMPUTED to them. Roman Catholicism says that God sees Christ's actual righteousness "INFUSED" into them; i.e., a righteousness that is their own.

Perhaps Paul erred or perhaps he was indeed one born out of time in that he didn't have the advantage of being able to read Jerry Bridges' article? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" /> For as I mentioned in my first reply to you, it was at the very end of his life that he proclaimed himself to be the "chief of sinners". He extolled the riches of knowing Christ. He spoke of being seated with Christ in the heavenlies. But this is relational and not actual. The more Paul lived with the knowledge of having been redeemed, he ALSO, by the Spirit, was given to see himself as God saw him in his sinfulness. And it was because of this knowledge of self that he was able to proclaim GRACE upon GRACE.

I would ask you, how does the biblical record describe the attitude and manner of those who were given special insights, visions and knowledge of God? Were they not first shown, as believers, their sinfulness as they beheld God's holiness? (cf. Is 6:1-5; Dan 10:16, 17; Job 42:5, 6; Matt 8:8; Lk 5:8; et al). I would also offer you another of Paul's exhortations which speaks to Christians specifically, where he wrote:


Although the following passage is often used to evidence the deity of Christ, it's original purpose was given as an example of how a Christian should conduct himself:


And one last bit of wisdom from the pen of the Apostle Paul:


In His Grace,