The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Who can be pardoned?

Pilgrim, you cited:

1 Corinthians 10:12 (KJV) "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

Would it then be considered 'cocky', presumptuous even, by seeming ourselves FIRST (even if it is 'relational' ) as seated in the heavenlies with Christ, being found IN HIM....

Would I be playing with antinomian fire. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I see a slight similarity between this and the issue of God's sovereignty and human responsibility....while both are true...one came after the other. God's work always precedes man's. No?

I agree that there is great comfort and even greater profit in knowing the convicting (to the already regenerate mind) basis of our justification...and that God has taken a completely polluted sinner (even having Christ die for us while we were yet sinners) and clothed him/her in the perfect robes of Christ righteousness, imputation of perfection ...but AFTER that....how then should we see ourselves and what should motivate us to greater spiritual heights? Seeing ourselves as still sinners in constant need of renovation (while true, like human responsibility is true) ...ever pulling ourselves up (which smacks of trying to become something we ALREADY are) ....or from God's sovereign vantage pt, albeit 'relational' that we need to BECOME what we already are?

Romans chapter 6 is supposedly where this idea is best seen. We are no longer slaves to sin...we are new creatures...so act/live like it.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Paul, who is well aware of his sinfulness in Chapter 7/8 of Romans, seems to be saying in Chapter 6, ..."work with me people.... how can you live for sin having been freed from it's bonds?....redeemed people are slaves to righteousness, not sin...you have been freed...now go live like a freed people!"

Also, you said our being 'seated with Christ' is relational, not 'actual'...but does that change anything? Does that matter in this instance? Does that weaken the argument I'm trying to make?

blessings,

Hi Laz,

I saw the "Lion King" and I do remember who I am! I am a sinner saved by grace! God sees me now, only through Christ's cleansing blood, He does not see me as I am now, a sinner waiting to be sanctified and glorified. He sees me, perfected in Christ because He cannot look at me as I am, in sin, and I do well to remember that!

We are In Christ and He is in us, but we still at this time, also have our sin natures. The sin nature still leads us to a greater or lesser degree, depending on our growth in Christ. Paul tells us in
Philippians 3:12-15 " Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."
This doesn't sound as if he views himself already at the top with Christ!

The article by Bridges was good, in that he was right that we must keep going back to the gospel to remind ourselves that Christ has already earned everything for us, what we do is done in gratitude. I do not see that he agrees with your pastor altogether. Paul also tells us not to "think of himself more highly than he ought to think", and Peter tells us that though we have been given "exceedingly great and precious promises" we are to "be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure". Doesn't sound like we, right now, can rest on Christ's laurels for our sanctification.

In His Hands,

Ruth

No! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The analogy is irrelevant. The issue is one of "subjectivity", not the "objectivity" of God's sovereignty in salvation.

What disturbs me, perhaps more than what you are trying to promote, is the motivation for doing so. Although, I cannot, at least at this time, put my finger on it, I suspect there is a latent agenda behind it. Not that you are consciously trying to foist some error upon us, but more likely you have been taken in by it. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> In time, D.v. I hope to be able to flush it out and expose it.

Again, I sense the subtlety of error in this statement. Objectively we have been freed from the bondage of sin. Classically, the church has taught that through Christ, the believing sinner has been freed from the penalty of sin (totally) and the presence and power of sin (in principle); i.e., the presence and power of sin has not been totally eradicated, but begun at regeneration and they diminish throughout the process of sanctification. It is one of the true marks of regeneration what the redeemed man begins to perceive not only the holiness of God more and more, but also he increases in the realization of the depth of his sin and the corruption of his heart.

As it is with the relationship between repentance and faith, so it is likewise with one's knowledge of God's holiness and his own sinfulness. Does one precede the other? or perhaps they are simultaneous and complementary. Truth says that one repents believing God and true faith is a repentant faith. They are two sides of the same coin. Thus if we were to grant that one should focus upon Christ and the exalted position of having been redeemed by Him, it should also be true that as one becomes more and more aware of "the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints," (Eph. 1:18), there will also be a greater sense of the depth of sin which remains within.

No sinner will ever come to Christ with a heart-felt need of being forgiven for sins and the necessity of being reconciled to God until there exists a Spirit-wrought conviction of sin. Likewise, one can never realize the greatness of grace until it is first known how undeserving, helpless and needy they are and that grace is not something that occurs in a moment of time, but it is forever needful throughout one's life here on earth. In fact, in glory, the saints will be singing praises to the Lamb Who was slain before the foundation of the earth, just because they are mindful of the fact that it was for their sins that He was slain.

So again I say, it is not an "either/or" but rather a "both/and" which must be maintained. The Pentecostal/Charismatic churches as well as the mass of "seeker-friendly" churches would have us "tone down" the reality of sin and focus upon the love of God in Christ Jesus. Put on that happy face and always rejoice in who you are (allegedly) in Christ. A few quick, Protestant "hail Mary's" each night and you are ready to go. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" /> It is also true that "morbid introspection" is no less in error. However, if given a choice between only those two extremes, I would surely choose the the latter. Thankfully, I don't have to choose between two errors because I have the truth of Scripture which rejects both and leads me down the narrow path; the "old paths" of my forebears. (Jer. 6:16)

In His Grace,

Such a bold statement Ruth: [b]Doesn't sound like we, right now, can rest on Christ's laurels for our sanctification.[/b] I'm so sorry to hear you say it. I know it's what you believe and you think I'm just a misguided antinomian, but it just greives me to hear it. Carol

Carol,
I think you must not understand the distinction between sanctification and justification.
Sanctification requires active obedience. We cannot rest on Christ's finished work for our sanctification, but we can for our justification. We are participants in our sanctification, and are empowered by the Holy Spirit as we strive to obey God by keeping His commandmentss and do those works God has ordained for us to do.
Justification and Sanctification are inseparable but distinct.
The following is from my notes taken from J. C. Ryle's book Holiness

Justification is a finished work and rests entirely on Christ's work done for me.
"The only righteousness in which we can appear before God is the righteousness of another--even the perfect righteousness of our Substitute and Representative, Jesus Christ the Lord."

"Sanctification is the inward spiritual work which the Lord Jesus Christ works in a man by the Holy Spirit when he calls him to be a true believer." (J.C. Ryle) We can never be more justified, but we can be more sanctified.

• Sanctification is God's will for us. I Thess 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification:
• It is a result of abiding in Christ. Jn 15:5
• Without sanctification there is no real spiritual life. James 2:17-20 ; 1 Jn 2:29; 1 Jn 3:9-14; 1 Jn 5:4-18
• It is evidence of the Holy Spirit's presence. Romans 8:9; Galatians 5:22,25; Romans 8:14
• It is a mark of God's election. 2 Thess 2:13; 1 Peter 1:22
  Thess 2:13; Romans 8:29; Eph 1:41 Thess 1:3,4
• It is our own fault if we are not holy.
• We can grow in sanctification. 2 Peter 3:18; 1 Thess 4:1; Jn 17:17; 1 Thess 4:3
• We must expect inward spiritual conflict. Our hearts are occupied by two rival camps. Galatians 5:17; Romans 7:22
• We must be diligent in using the means God has given us such as Bible reading, private prayer, worship, hearing faithful preaching, communion, etc.
• All our works are imperfect, but our efforts can be pleasing to God when done with the right heart much as a small child's efforts can please his parent.
• Sanctification cannot justify us, yet it pleases God. Romans 3:20-28; 1 Jn 3:22
• Our works will be examined for evidence of grace. Jn 5:29; 2 Cor 5:10; Rev 20:13
• We must be made fit for heaven. God wants to make us holy. We must not become discouraged that so many flaws remain in us. The more light we have, the more we will see our own imperfections and we will be ashamed. We are debtors to mercy and grace every hour.

"The Lord Jesus Christ has undertaken everything that His people's souls require; not only to deliver them from the guilt of their sins, but from the dominion of their sins, by placing in their hearts the Holy Spirit; not only to justify them, but also to sanctify them. He is, thus, not only their righteousness, but their sanctification."

Titus 2:14 ... who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

Susan,

Great quote(s) from J.C. Ryle and his marvelous book, Holiness. What some here also seem to have missed or perhaps rejected, is the biblical distinction between Definitive Sanctification and Progressive Sanctification (Growth in Grace). Our total reliance on acceptance with God in both justification and sanctification is the Lord Jesus Christ (1Cor 1:30). Not even our good works are acceptable in and of themselves as being perfect in holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. Yet they are required of us as the Spirit works in us (Phil 2:12, 13; Eph 2:8-10). As our faith is not that which effects justification, our good works don't effect our sanctification. But both are the necessary means to their respective ends.

Where justification, being a forensic declaration, is about our condition, sanctification, being a dynamic work of restoration, is that which changes our condition. As one Puritan said, "Justification makes us qualified for heaven. Sanctification prepares us for heaven."

Thus, there is this two-fold aspect of sanctification; one objective (our holiness in Christ who is our righteousness), and the subjective (our being made holy by the Spirit of Christ Who leads us into righteousness).

In His Grace,

Its funny because I hear all the same arguments when I talk to an arminian about justification. Pretty much word for word. They say there are all these commands in the bible to believe and repent and we must participate in that, and ---yes, we must and we will, once he changes our minds and gives us the desire. You all keep pointing out verses to me that say we must participate in our sanctification and I say to that --–yes, we must and we will, once he changes our minds and gives us the desire. It seems strange to me that you believe the Holy Spirit can do it in justification, but not in sanctification. In sanctification, we must help him along. The idea that he would do the work in us and give us the desire to do these things is called ethereal, mystical, secret and alien guiding. I do not believe it. I will look to Christ for my justification [b]and[/b] my sanctification. If I have to depend on myself to do it I will fail, I know. If I look to him and study his word, I know he will perform the work in me. I needn't worry about it, just look to him and trust in him and the faith and good works will come. Carol For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. II Timothy 1:12 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen Hebrews 13: 21-21

Laz,This has been an interesting discussion. It made me think of the Sermon on the Mount and Ryle's exposition of it.

Here is an excerpt.

whole thing is here: http://www.iserv.net/~mrbill/exp/mt050112.html

Carol,
But we are talking about sanctification, not justification. In justification we respond to God. God makes it possible for us to repent and to believe. We were dead in our sins and could do nothing before God regenerated us.

We respond to God's work in us- being made into new creatures-- by exercising the gifts of repentance and faith that God has given us.

OK we are agreed here too.

I don't recall anyone saying that the Holy Spirit working in us and giving us the desire to obey is being questioned. It seems you are saying that our role is a passive one. That I do disagree with. Also the Spirit guides us through the Word of God and this includes the commandments.

I am also looking to Christ for my justification and my sanctification. Without Him I have no hope and no salvation. But you seem to be overlooking the fact that we are in a spiritual war here. Nothing is automatic or easy. We also have the world, a sinful nature (the flesh), and a devil to fight against. There are too many verses that teach this to ignore. J. C. Ryle said," If he (a Christian) had a nature like an angel, and were not a fallen creature, the warfare would not be so essential. But with a corrupt heart, a busy devil, and an ensnaring world, he must either "fight" or be lost."

To name a few verses here:

Galatians 5: 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Matthew 26 41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Romans 7 v.21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

I think I get your point, Susan...but I don't think my post would encourage anyone to think more highly of themselves than they ought.

After we've taken stock of our sinful lives and disposition, and have humbled ourselves, bowing to Christ's magesty...and even in our walk of sanctification, I think there is a place for comfort and joy, rejoicing ...and in principle part because of where we stand positionally in Christ.

For the already lowly, meek, hungry and thirsty....look up every so often, ....or look down, and believe that you have been raised together with Christ...and then strive to live out of your true/objective citizenship.

I don't think we disagree...it is "both/and" as Pilgrim's stated....I"m merely trying bring up a point relative to the other side of the same coin that seems to resonate with me that is oft not considered to it's fullest and marvelous end.

blessings,

hmmm, if it's too easy, you must be doing something wrong? hehe

all kidding aside...I agree with Susan that our walk of obedience isn't easy....it wasn't for Paul...not for any of us. If it ever becomes easy....we're either super-sanctified or seered in our conscious relative to sin...or dead.

blessings,

Carol,

It appears you haven't grasp the significance of sanctification yet. Certainly both justification and sanctification are dependent on the grace of God alone. It's not like the believer is helping the Holy Spirit along nor is sanctification dependent on the believer. However sanctification is both part of salvation and a progressive inner work in the life of a believer.

Justification is being declared not-guilty. Sanctification is being cleansed within and conforming to the image of Christ. I've just posted a summary of the law and the gospel here. I hope you might chose to read it and find it helpful.

Wes

Yes I agree with you Laz. I didn't mean to imply by the Ryle quote that I thought we need only dwell on our sinfulness. The original post was about only the truly penitent can be saved and that the humble are given grace.

There is certainly a place for rejoicing in God's goodness to us. We need to have not only humility, but assurance knowing we are loved and accepted by God. We have many sins to repent of but we have many things to rejoice about too.