The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum A what if

The reason that you had to make it up is because tongues have ceased...

I actually have a copy of that book. Pretty darn good. I wanna read it again though.

I did, though, hear of a similar situation to the one I relayed here. It made me, more than anything, wanna laugh.

I will say, though, that I have recently been dealing a whole lot with Pentecostals. And I am re-thinking my view on tongues. I'm not going to the extent where it is always good and happens all the time today and junk like that. More than anything, what I think I am doing is taking a more "mature" stand on it. Instead of just saying it's dead, I am seeing it as still alive, but not used these days, and when it is, a lot of times, it is not God doing it, but satan using it in an attempt to lead people away from the church. Like you said in an earlier post that tongues has been known to happen in other world religions outside of Christianity, more what I see anymore is a lie when it comes to tongues. Or if it is "real", it is an ungood thing. Correct me if some of this is wrong.

Sorry to make you concerned over nothing. I just have to be careful with posts like this cuz people sometimes get REALLY passionate about stuff and could possibly just randomly go off on me. And I don't want that. Not when my daily prayer is for God to make me a minister of reconciliation in this world.

Since we're on this "tongues" issue. This is one of the things I'm not sure I have a "black and white" answer on myself, and it's from my experiences too that it's hard to totally discredit this as being something God doesn't use today. I understand John MacArthur (who I like) teaches this same thing - that tongues and these similar gifts have ceased for today. (I heard this from a friend and I haven't yet read all of his books) Can you show me biblically why you too beleive this?? See if I personally beleive it is absolutely NEVER used today by God and it was only for the very early church, then I can't explain my mother's experience and the grandmother's experiences with praying in tongues and interpreting tongues (my mother once interpreted tongues-I said this in a prior post on this thread) and even how my mother met the Lord and so then I would have to conclude that it was Satan. Well it's hard for me then for it to make sense because I know my mother and grandmother were both born-again beleivers without any doubt unless Satan is just even more deceptive then we really know (and he is the master of deception according to the scriptures). So it's a good question Kalled2Preach brought up - because it really isn't always so black and white. So could you or anyone else who hold this view too show me why you hold it. Thanks.

Gee, so those of us who hold to the Cessationist position hold to a less than "mature" stand on this matter? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" /> I would counter that unfortunate statement/opinion of yours by saying that those who are "mature" in the faith are those who submit themselves to the objective teachings of Scripture, despite the apparent experience of either ourselves and/or others. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As an example, I would direct your thinking to another matter; creation. Those who have gone the way of embracing "Theistic Evolution", to whatever degree, have given in to the pressure of modern science; call it experience if you will since it is the "experience" of empirical investigation along with the godless these scientists godless conclusions. Thus, these Christians have bartered away the clear objective doctrine of creation in an attempt to reconcile the conclusions of the godless scientific community.

And lastly, I would highly recommend you get your hands on a copy of these two books:

Perspectives on Pentecost, by Dr. Richard Gaffin
The Final Word, by O. Palmer Robertson

You might also want to read this article which presents a very brief portion of Gaffin's arguments against those of Wayne Grudem, which you can find by clicking here: Gaffin and Grudem on Ephesians 2:20.

More of the same can be found here: The Charismatic Movement.

In His Grace,

Now who would just randomly go off on you here? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/surrender.gif" alt="" />
Seriously, if you have questions about the validity of tongues for today, that is a very reasonable and good question to ask, especially if you will be responsible one day for guarding the Lord's sheep and protecting them from the errors of false teachings.

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nope.gif" alt="" /> Your conclusion isn't necessarily a right one. There is another possibility and one which I believe is more probable. Although Satan is the "father of lies" and the great impostor, and the power behind all that is ungodly and that which is opposed to God and truth, we would be remiss to cast all blame on him for the sins and errors of men. It is my concerted opinion that the overwhelming majority of those who have been ensnared by the Pentecostal/Charismagic heresies and allegedly spoken in tongues, prophesied, etc., have done so out of a psychological delusion. Yes, they have convinced themselves or perhaps better, allowed themselves to be convinced that these things are true and thereby literally, albeit in some cases, unconsciously forced themselves to produce the phenomena. Compare this to "psychosomatic disease". <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Ponder.gif" alt="" /> Although there is actually no real disease or affliction within the person's body, the individual believes he/she has it, and they do exhibit symptoms of disease brought on by their strong belief that they have something wrong with them.

In His Grace,

Pilgrim said,

"It is my concerted opinion that the overwhelming majority of those who have been ensnared by the Pentecostal/Charismagic heresies and allegedly spoken in tongues, prophesied, etc., have done so out of a psychological delusion. Yes, they have convinced themselves or perhaps better, allowed themselves to be convinced that these things are true and thereby literally, albeit in some cases, unconsciously forced themselves to produce the phenomena."

(me now) When you are told in these churches to speak in tongues, they will tell you to just open your mouth and start talking. They say that if you only have even one syllable, just practice it. More will come to you as you 'practice.' So guess what, some "gift!" I have only ever seen this "gift" practiced where the same exact phrase is spoken over and over and over. That is no "gift" from God.

As far as the situation you made up.. if you have heard of something like this, then what makes you wonder at the truth or lie of it? Someone in the back row pops off with something that sounds like German, and somoene in the front row begins weeping and speaking in english.. supposedly "interpreting.' Well, no one understood the tongue speaker, so no one can verify whether or not the "interpretation" was correct. This happens all the time. So many times these things happen on the spur of the moment in churches, usually during worship services, when people are at a high emotional level.. and i might add a bit hypnotized because they have been singing the same chorus over and over and over and over. The bible tells us that our services must be done "decently and in order."

Just your example alone is not a biblical example. Even if tongues were for today, the bible is clear on how it was to be practiced. In a movie theater would not be a proper place back then... or if you will.. in say, an amphitheater while watching a play or something.

Another thing, you said that you don't want people to go off on you. Well, I totally understand that <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hugs.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/comfort.gif" alt="" /> I really do.... but the cross of Christ is offensive. And in these times that we live in, the more firm you are in your stance, the more people will attack you. There is no such thing as peace if it comes at "any cost." That is not truly peace. Jesus Himself had "enemies." yet He was always speaking the truth in love. Fear no man... only fear God!

I actually do still have questions about tongues in particular. None of which I have had answered in any article that I've read. But what I have concluded, is that I have never seen it practiced biblically, never seen someone who did not have a great deal of spiritual pride who practiced tongues, or who ever wanted to seriously look at whether or not it was for today. The answer you will get is that the cessationists are full of "hogwash" or some such answer. No serious discussion at all. In fact just questioning it too much will usually get one castigated, and shunned. I am personally willing to forgo any more thoughts on the issue.. because to me there has been no evidence at all to prove that tongues are for today! Just a lot of disobedience and blasphemy in these churches and movements.

I know you didn't want anyone to go off on ya.. that's really not what I'm doing.. I really am just concerned about the things you are saying is all. I guess that's it lol. Sorry for the lenthy post! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/moron.gif" alt="" />

Michele

Michele,

Despite the fact that most of your reply was directed at Kalled2Preach and only the first part was a reply to me, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" /> I would be interested in what these questions are you have which have not been answered in any article you have read.

In His Grace,

Hiya..

Well, let me say first, that my statement does not mean that the answer is nowhere lol. It means only that i have not personally read an article yet that addresses some of the issues. And to be even more clear.. I am not even sure I have those same questions!

For instance, when I first started on my journey out of the charismatic church, I was told a lot that even though I have not heard tongues practiced biblically, that it only meant that Satan was counterfeiting this "gift." So it was possible that some were practicing it biblically, but we can't see it because it is being done in private.

All that was supposing that tongues are for today though. These are the same people who tell me the very same thing about being "slain in the spirit." That we must "test the spirits." EVEN THOUGH there is NO biblical mandate for this phenomenon. Though they say there is.. there isn't. They are verses wrenched out of context.. which anyone with any reason would SEE. So.. since the same people tell me both of those things, (among other apparent reasons) I reject all of it. I know that probably sounds too subjective, and not the greatest reason. But I have had to scootch everything I've ever learned over to the side and try and untangle it. I am throwing away and decluttering much of the theology I have learned in the past and verrrry slowly rebuilding.

So, having said that, I just wonder why there is so much said about tongues in the bible and the practice of it, if it is not for today. I have seen things that I guess I don't discuss too much, because it's either believed by those out there with a thousand conspiracy theories, or rejected out of hand by others.. (but I know what I saw.) I'd rather not stand in that paranoid camp! LOL. It just seems to me that there is an awful lot of things said about tongues specifically in the new testament.

This post probably didn't make a lot of sense! Sorry... it makes sense to me! LOL <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/moron.gif" alt="" />

Michele

Michele,

I can appreciate your situation, having come out of a charismagic church setting where these things are believed and allegedly practiced. It is so easy to let our eyes and emotions control what we believe. However, we are admonished and encouraged to walk by faith and not by sight. And we are also told that our hearts can and too often do deceive us. So, what is left? Ah.. the infallible inerrant written Word of God, which we know is truth.

Where does that bring us? It brings us to the place where we need to exegete the biblical text and to apply the "Analogy of Faith" (comparing Scripture with Scripture). Our hermeneutic (method of interpretation) must also be faithful to that which is given us in the Scripture and not something we fabricate to suite our preconceived ideas. The biblical hermeneutic is called the "Grammatico-Historico" method of interpretation. Simply it is taking into account first of all the grammar of the original language and then including and appreciating the historical period in which the text was written and of the people to whom it was addressed.

Okay... about now you are throwing up your hands <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" /> and wondering how in the world you can do all that?? What is true is that all the fundamental doctrines of Scripture; i.e., the essentials can be known, at least sufficiently known, by anyone who is indwelt by the Spirit of God. There are things which are easily understood and there are those things which are difficult to understand. (2Pet 3:16) Although every believer has the Spirit of God Who leads them into the truth, they don't have the same measure of ability nor are all given the same talent/gift. Thus, as God has so willed it, the Church is an interdependent body whose members must be nourished by each other. (1Cor 12:4f; Eph 4:11-17)

This is where preaching, teaching and Commentaries come into play. Those of us who are not gifted in the area of biblical exegesis and interpretation (remember we all have this ability to some degree) must rely upon those who are. This is far different than what the RCC and many Pentecostals, cults, etc., teach which is that only the clergy, prophet, etc., can understand Scripture. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes2.gif" alt="" /> The wonder of all this is that even though we may not be gifted in this area, we do have the Spirit of God Who has taught us the fundamentals of the Scriptural truth. Thus, if one of the "gifted" expositors teaches anything which is contrary to those fundamental truths, we know it isn't of God and the teaching is in error. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This is getting rather long, isn't it? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" /> Specifically then, the gifts of the Spirit were given to the first century church for several reasons, e.g., witness to the appointment and authority of the Apostles, the witness and acceptance of God's inclusion of the Gentiles into the church, preparation for the writing of the New Testament Canon, etc. So, once those gifts served their purpose, they were discontinued. Again, I would point you to the several articles found here: The Charismatic Movement, which deal with the cessation of the "ecstatic gifts" of the Spirit.

In His Grace,

I just couldn't think of another word other than that one at the time. I didn't mean that you or others who hold your view are less mature or something. I meant, and I prolly shoulda clarified this better earlier, that I don't just ignore and close myself off and say, "No! You're full of crap because you believe different than me!" but instead I apply Scripture to them and use Scripture to back my thoughts when dealing with them.

I have read a couple of the Charismatic articles before, and I have a hard time seeing how the gift has ceased. I think that today it is being misused and is therefore ineffective, but I don't think it has ceased. Although, further reading may show me in the wrong.

But what if it doesn't? What if I still come out holding a different view on this matter?

Pilgrim,

Your post was definately NOT too long. I do enjoy reading a bit more in depth. Be ready though, THIS will probably be long!

I understand what you are saying about exegesis.. I did correspond a bit with someone here about that subject, but when I attempted it, it was a miserable flop LOLOL. Oh well.. there is much more to exegesis than I realized, or that I have time for with all these children running around. I came to the conclusion, that if God said that the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth, I would believe it, and God would not let me go astray.. or at least for too long. He hasn't so far!

I really should have thought more about my reply to your question. I realized after writing it, and while cooking dinner, that there is so much more that I don't discuss than tongues. I am actually fairly well settled about the tongues issue anyway. I think that what KalledtoPreach mentioned, for instance about "non salvation" issues is important. Since leaving the charismatic stuff, I rejected every part and parcel of it.. in order to protect my sanity sometimes LOL. But I think there are still issues that need clarification.

For instance.. one very popular idea in the charismatics is spiritual warfare. Including but not limited to, the wiles of the devil. I fully agree with the article that I read aobout it from MLJ, which you provided, but on the other hand, what about say.. blasphemous thoughts? I have them. I can tell you that when I have thoughts of say and adulterous nature.. I do not blame the devil. I confess them as my own, and repent, or I will not entertain them and reject them before they start. I do take responsibility. BUT.. on the other hand.. blasphemous thoughts that come to my mind.. I of course reject immediately.. but they are also such a suprise to me! I really love God! Why would I think such a thought?? Isn't that a wile of the devil? How can I claim that as my own thought, or my own sin? It repulses me. It disgusts me and even grieves me to no end.

What about people in our lives that are not christians? Now, I don't think that in any way, they spiritually infuence.. like as in if they are bound by adultery, or homosexuality or whatever, that we will be possessed by their "demons," but are their cases of demon possession these days? Is this also an area confined to only the early church "casting out demons?"

I suppose I should decide whether or not to participate in the other board that I go to.. because we literally don't have any doctrine whatsoever in common. But on it they also discuss the passion movie. They are not going to go and see it, but for different reasons than spelled out here. They don't even consider the 2nd commandment. What they have posted though, are stories of demonic activity going on at this movie. One woman had a heart attack and died, another was overcome with fits of seizures.. though before that the person has always been in good health.. and etc. What about these situations? OR about the one that I ran into? I will not go into it unless it's okay to.. but not in this post because it would really make it too long. But I did see someone open themselves up to something spiritual.. and it wasn't holy spiritual!

So.. those are a few things I will put out there eh?! You asked! LOL..

I am not in any way drawn back to the charismatic mumbo jumbo, but I do wonder how we deal with these things in real life. It can't all be mental/intellectual.

The way I found this board was through a great yahoo group that ministers to people coming out of the charismatic movement. The leader of it is extremely protective of the people there. He is a really wonderful and loving person.. and so is his wife! It was there that I started learning about the reformed doctrine. He wrote something in a message one time that he asks God to "apply the word to his heart." Well.. it's taken me a long time to understand what he meant, but I finally prayed the same for myself. Just yesterday. I read the bible, and I was amazed at how just reading it, because I want to know the mind and heart of God.. not just the words.. that I walked away from it with so much more faith. So that I think was something very spiritual. Not emotional in any way. And I am starting to finally understand that I shouldn't be asking God to "help" me with a lot of things.. that I should be asking Him to do that work in my heart and mind that I cannot do. I cannot change my nature. I cannot change much of anything but what I do, and commit to God. But now, these things are in fact coming up as issues. I don't know how to pray effectively. Or at least I think I don't anyway. I mention that because I think I am understanding what it means to be spiritual and not emotional. I am very grateful for the link you provided (and the other guy.. though I can't remember his name!)

Alrighty.. I am sure this post is too long! LOL. But there ya go..I certainly hope I haven't made anyone weak, or made anyone stumble.. but really.. not discussing it is sort of dangerous as well if they are questions that need answering.

Michele

Hi Michelle,
Just to say there actually isn't a lot said about tongues in the Bible:-
A single mention in Mark 16,
A tiny proportion of Acts
and part of 3 chapters in 1Corinthians.

Not a word in the other 24 books of the NT.

That's a tiny amount compared with the amount of print that's been spent on discussing it.

Steve