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#13094 Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:47 PM
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John_C Offline OP
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I wonder how prevalent it will become?

Persecution

Last edited by John_C; Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:52 PM.

John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
John_C #13095 Thu Apr 01, 2004 2:03 AM
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Tom Offline
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Oh my <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

After reading that, I am thinking of asking my doctor (who is a deacon at my Church) what he thinks about the matter.

Tom

John_C #13096 Thu Apr 01, 2004 8:46 AM
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John,

Not sure I will be relaying all the facts as they are/were, but I think it will succeed in its purpose. Several years ago, the hospital where my wife worked, here in Canada, got embroiled in a fight with the Provincial Government over the issue of abortion. The Hospital's Board, I believe, changed its policy to NOT do abortions. I think the majority of doctors decided on this and the Board followed???? I am sure any mistakes in facts will be corrected by someone who knows. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, the government stepped in and demanded that they change their policy re: abortion. The Hospital Board refused and they were all fired/removed and eventually replaced with those who would "just say yes" to the government. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />


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Pilgrim #13097 Thu Apr 01, 2004 11:25 AM
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Tom Offline
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Pilgrim

What you have said would seem to be in keeping with what happened years ago with Grace Hospital (Salvation Army run) in Vancouver.
18 years ago when my daughter was born in Grace Hospital, it never did abortions. But a few years later the Salvation Army was forced to leave the hospital industry when the government told them that they would be with held all funding, if they didn't start offering abortions.
Of course the Salvation Army ended up getting out of the business and the government took over the hospital.

Tom

John_C #13098 Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:11 PM
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Interesting line of questioning by a judge in an abortion case here:

http://start.usaa.net/newsarticle?cat=6&aid=401012641_5302_lead_story

In Him,

Gerry

John_C #13099 Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:09 PM
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John,
That was a very disturbing article! My husband shared the following article with me after I told him about what you posted. We're afraid America is right behind Canada on this same road to tyranny.
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Authentic democracy is possible only in a state ruled by law, and on the basis of a correct conception of the human person. It requires that the necessary conditions be present for the advancement both of the individual through education and formation in true ideals, and of the “subjectivity” of society through the creation of structures of participation and shared responsibility. Nowadays there is a tendency to claim that agnosticism and skeptical relativism are the philosophy and the basic attitude which correspond to democratic forms of political life. Those who are convinced that they know the truth and firmly adhere to it are considered unreliable from a democratic point of view, since they do not accept that truth is determined by the majority, or that it is subject to variation according to different political trends. It must be observed in this regard that if there is no ultimate truth to guide and direct political activity, then ideas and convictions can easily be manipulated for reasons of power. As history demonstrates, a democracy without values easily turns into open or thinly disguised totalitarianism. --Pope John Paul II in a highly relevant passage from Centesimus Annus in 1991

That last sentence stings. Could our democracy become a “thinly disguised totalitarianism”? Surely the Holy Father was not talking about Canada? In 1991, perhaps his words did not apply. They certainly do apply now. Canada is not a totalitarian state, but the totalitarian impulse is very thinly disguised indeed, and the signs on the horizon are ominous.
When religious liberty is lost, democracy—even if it maintains the structures and procedures of the democratic state—is lost. So the stakes are very high. That is why John Paul has stressed throughout the twenty-five years of his pontificate that religious liberty is the first liberty. Religious liberty means that there are areas where the state may not go. It means that the state may not coerce consciences. A democracy that loses its respect for religious liberty has lost its respect for limited government. Such a democracy, infected by the totalitarian impulse, may continue to wear the guise of democracy while heading in the opposite direction.
A full-fledged totalitarian state recognizes no limits to state power. There are no spheres where the state is not competent to act. But before totalitarianism triumphant, there is the totalitarian impulse, which may be understood as the ambition of the state to extend its authority to realms where it has no authority. The totalitarian impulse is a threat to democracy because it seeks to overturn the democratic value of limited government. The totalitarian impulse necessarily seeks to limit religious liberty.
A pithy definition of totalitarianism was offered by one of its fiercest practitioners, Benito Mussolini: “Everything within the state, nothing against the state, nothing outside the state.” Mussolini, even in a staunchly Catholic country in which he could never control the Church, realized that, in theory, totalitarianism cannot abide anything that makes claims about a realm beyond the state. In other words, it cannot abide the truth claims that religious liberty protects.
There are no restrictions on freedom of worship in Canada today. Canadians can practice their faith unmolested by the state. But increasingly, full participation in civil, commercial, and professional life is requiring that religiously grounded beliefs be left at the door. The threat is coming not only from courts and legislatures, but from tribunals, regulatory bodies, and professional associations. The gay marriage issue has attracted most of the attention. But the threat to religious liberty reaches much farther. It reaches toward everything, as in “totality.”
Raymond J. de Souza

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0404/opinion/desouza.html

#13100 Thu Apr 01, 2004 4:13 PM
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Wow, a judge that isn't afraid to ask politically incorrect questions <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/applause.gif" alt="" />

Either that abortionist is a bold faced liar, or he has absolutely no conscience. I would say both are true.

Tom

#13101 Sat Apr 03, 2004 9:02 AM
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Susan,

I picked up the issue of First Things which had that article in it and read it over lunch yesterday. As I read the article two things went through my mind. One of those was your observation that the US is not far behind.

The second was a thought regarding the church and state. There are good reasons why we should not mix the two. Reasons certain reformed folk refuse to accept. Whenever the State and the Church get chummy, the church loses. "Bad company corrupts good character."

SDG

bestrech #13102 Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:55 PM
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Check out this article for more bad news! Here

#13103 Sun Apr 25, 2004 9:59 AM
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Susan said:
Check out this article for more bad news! Here
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ranton.gif" alt="" />
Well Susan when the offer came to us here in Washington state to "coordinate" with the public schools and "make use" of some of their programs many of us homeschoolers said that it was just another way of trying to bring us into the public school system. And that we were having no truck with it. After all anytime that a child is enrolled in even one program in public school the public school gets to add the equivalent amount of money to their school so all our children is but another source of income. There was no true desire to help educate them. Unfortunately many parents didn't realize that and were sucked into the scheme. What happened in Canada shows where this compromise leads to.

Call me a Jeremiad but I will maintain this until I die that the large Unions that run the Teachers are against homeschooling and always will be. That is why there can be no working with them ever. Their goals and ours are completely different both in philosophy of education and in world view. Until the NEA and other unions like it are abolished or completely changed both in government and philosophy never trust them to do what is right for our children. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rantoff.gif" alt="" />

bestrech #13104 Sun Apr 25, 2004 11:53 AM
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bestrech said:
Whenever the Church and State get chummy, the Church loses. 'Bad company corrupts good character.'

Amen to that! I would also point out that many of the problems in the middle east are caused by religious influence in government. Also in Britain we are perplexed at the bitter rivalries between Catholics and Protestants. Why? Because both churches have competing interests and influences in government.

Also we can remember the words of Jesus saying,"My Kingdom is not of this world, if it was of this world, my soldiers would fight to prevent my capture." Heavenly government. Earthly government. Let's keep them separate. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

"Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen."

catholicsoldier

#13105 Sun Apr 25, 2004 12:37 PM
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Tom Offline
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I think the founder of the western education system, said something to the effect of: "Education is useless without the Bible".

Tom

Tom #13106 Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:54 PM
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Tom said:
I think the founder of the western education system, said something to the effect of: "Education is useless without the Bible".

Tom

Tom I think you meant Martin Luther who while not the founder of the western education system said this:
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I am afraid that the schools will prove the very gates of hell, unless they diligently labor in explaining the Holy Scriptures and engraving them in the heart of the youth. Martin Luther

Nuff said,

#13107 Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:05 AM
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Prestor John

Actually I believe the person I am referring to has the last name of Webster. His first name could be Noel.

I have to say that right now, I am pretty mad at what is happening in our health care system.
In case you haven't heard, in British Columbia we have a strike going on that has cancelled all but emergency operations.
That includes the operation that I was scheduled to have on Wednesday. In which I have been waiting for over a year.
It now seems like I am going to have to wait until November.

Sorry... just venting <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" />

Tom

Tom #13108 Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:24 AM
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I thought I would just add that I was just talking to my brother about this strike.
He is a health care aid, who said that the government wants to roll back their wages 10 dollars per hour, with no job security, as well as roll back on sick time.
He went to school for 6 months to get the job and he is very over worked.
He said without this training there would be no way he would be able to do what he does.
He also said the government would like to privatize and hire unqualified people to do the same kind of work he does if the qualified will not do it.
He believes that if that happens, it puts people's lives at risk.
This is why he is in full support of the strike, even though he doesn't like it.

Hmmm makes me wonder. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

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