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#14042 - Friday, April 23, 2004 1:09 PM Continuity in Old and NT
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Wes said: Is it generally true that Baptists don't see much continuity with the old covenant and the new? How do Baptists view the promise God made with Abraham?


I see lots of continuity, though I can't speak for other Baptists.
The promise to Abraham is the promise to those who have the faith of Abraham, whether they are physically related to him or not. We are his children if we have faith. These promises apply to God's children for all times. Many of these outward things pointed to the greater spiritual realities realized in Christ.


God gives his people an inheritance. Ezekiel 36: 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land.

God forgives His people's sins.
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.

God regenerates them making them new creatures.
26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

He gives His people His Holy Spirit.
27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

He sanctifies His people
29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.

God provides for His people's physical needs.
And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations.

God shows us how we are debtors to His mercy.
31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations.

God reminds us that we are wretched undeserving sinners.
32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

God blesses his people and makes them fruitful.
37 “Thus says the Lord God: This also I will let the house of Israel ask me to do for them: to increase their people like a flock. 38 Like the flock for sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”

God makes the spiritually dead live. He will raise the dead.
Ezekiel 37: 4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

He unites His people.
22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

His Son rules over His people and shepherds them.
24 “My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever.

He gives his people peace and an everlasting covenant.
26 I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them.

He will dwell in the midst of His people
And I will set them in their land and multiply them and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”

Our inheritance further described in the NT!

Quote:
Ephesians 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

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#14043 - Friday, April 23, 2004 4:22 PM Re: Continuity in Old and NT
MarieP Offline
Permanent Resident

Registered: Friday, March 28, 2003
Posts: 2311
Loc: Kentucky
Thanks Susan! Great list!

Back to the wuestion Wes had, I think it depends on what sort of Baptist you are talking about. Reformed Baptists and those Founders churches who don't subscribe to NCT would see more continuity than discontinuity. Sadly, NCT seems to be thriving in many places.

As for the non-Calvinist Baptist churches, many of those are Dispensationalist.
_________________________
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin

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#14044 - Saturday, April 24, 2004 8:10 AM Re: Continuity in Old and NT
Wes Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Saturday, August 25, 2001
Posts: 3553
Loc: Northwest Indiana, USA
Susan,

Thanks for picking up on my question in the other thread. I appreciate the impressive list you have posted in your reply. However I'm honestly trying to understand how Baptists view the Covenant of Grace God made with Abraham.

Our different views on the Covenant of Grace God made with Abraham seems to stem from how we view our children. In Genesis 17:6-11 we read, "I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

And God said to Abraham: "As for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. This is My covenant which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you."

I was communicating with Steve via PM and he told me that he doesn't believe that God promises to save anyone's children. He believes that the children of believers should not be recognized in the promise. This prompted my question regarding how Baptists view the continuity of the old and new covenants. It seems we have not only different perspectives but don't understand each other's positions. This is not an all inclusive statement because I'm sure some here understand both sides quite well but I'm convinced not all do.

In the other thread Joe is explaining the view I hold and I'm reading Steve's replies to try to understand his Baptist view.


Wes
_________________________
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts

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#14045 - Saturday, April 24, 2004 8:39 PM Re: Continuity in Old and NT
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 4266
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...

In light of what Wes said:
“Is it generally true that Baptists don't see much continuity with the old covenant and the new? How do Baptists view the promise God made with Abraham?”

I believe that this is a misunderstanding of Baptist CT, though I would agree that that it is generally true among Baptists who hold to a Dispensational hermeneutic.
I thought however, that rather than trying to explain this in my own words (I would probably butcher it), instead I would give anyone who is interested a link to understand Baptist CT.

I must also add that I am not giving this link to stir up anything other than to help people understand Baptist CT.

"The Key to Understanding Scripture" by Dr. Fred Malone
http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace/Page7.html#malone

Tom

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#14046 - Monday, April 26, 2004 9:30 AM Re: Continuity in Old and NT
BrimstonePreacha Offline
Member

Registered: Wednesday, August 27, 2003
Posts: 118
Loc: Evansville Indiana, USA / Cit...
Dear Susan,

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ranton.gif" alt="" /> I would say that I'm most definitely not stereotypical of Baptist, and what experience I do have would lead me to believe that most Baptist do not think about or learn about the relationship of the Church to God or how Israel and the Church compare. They are quite given the most child like of answers which they will then recite in order to answer any questions that may come up. Most of the Baptist I've met who are not reformed are dispensationalist b/c they don't know that there's any other way of seeing it. Personally I can say for certain that I am most definitely not dispensationalist and I think that anyone who can say that they are either does not know what that means or has not read their Bible any lenght at all. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rantoff.gif" alt="" />

As for your list here, I think it's a good list that applies both to the Israel and to the church and shows that just as God blessed His chosen people in the OT so too does He bless His chosen people in the NT. The sad fact is that most people just don't have the desire or the encouragement to study these things out and come to an opinion, rather they let their pastors do it for them just as those pastors have let their pastors tell them. It's the blind leading the blind!

-Brother Luke

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#14047 - Monday, April 26, 2004 11:51 AM Re: Continuity in Old and NT [Re: BrimstonePreacha]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I see continuity in administration.......all those who profess and their OIKOS.......and then a continuity of the same practice throughout church history.

OIKOS

Who Departed


God bless,

william


Edited by averagefellar (Monday, April 26, 2004 12:02 PM)

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#14048 - Monday, April 26, 2004 12:53 PM Re: Continuity in Old and NT [Re: MarieP]
fredman Offline
Addict

Registered: Tuesday, July 30, 2002
Posts: 593
Loc: Canyon Country, CA
Quote:
Sadly, NCT seems to be thriving in many places


(Fred) Really? Where exactly? Could you give specifics? This would be extremely welcomed in my mind.

Fred
_________________________
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns

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#14049 - Monday, April 26, 2004 7:49 PM Re: Continuity in Old and NT [Re: BrimstonePreacha]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
I would say that I'm most definitely not stereotypical of Baptist, and what experience I do have would lead me to believe that most Baptist do not think about or learn about the relationship of the Church to God or how Israel and the Church compare.

There is much difference in Reformed and arminian Baptists. Most of the Baptists where I live have gone to church all their lives, yet few really read their Bibles. Many Christians never read the OT at all.
Quote:
The sad fact is that most people just don't have the desire or the encouragement to study these things out and come to an opinion, rather they let their pastors do it for them just as those pastors have let their pastors tell them. It's the blind leading the blind!

OK, Luke so now you have your job cut out for you! Go and tell them. Preach it brother! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

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#14050 - Monday, April 26, 2004 10:42 PM Re: Continuity in Old and NT
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
averagefellar said:
I see continuity in administration.......all those who profess and their OIKOS.......and then a continuity of the same practice throughout church history.

OIKOS

Who Departed


God bless,

william


William I suggest reading this:
To Thee and Thy Seed?: A Critical Review of Paedobaptism

A critical evaluation of paedobaptism by Greg Welty Please pay careful attention to Greg's comment on the differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

String of Pearls unstrung Fred Malone Please see Fred's comment concerning the continuity of the covenants .

A Reformed Baptist View of I Cor. 7:14 And last but not least this look at OIKOS

All of this explains fully our view of the continuity of the covenants. Of course you will probably disagree with this view but I believe it explains where we are coming from.

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#14051 - Monday, April 26, 2004 10:43 PM Re: Continuity in Old and NT [Re: fredman]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

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#14052 - Monday, April 26, 2004 10:53 PM Infants and Particular Redemption
MarieP Offline
Permanent Resident

Registered: Friday, March 28, 2003
Posts: 2311
Loc: Kentucky
I'd like to hear a pedobaptist response to this section of Fred Malone's pamphlet:

Quote:
The New Covenant Sacrifice


To say that all physical infants of believers are "in" the New Covenant as the infants of Abraham were "in" the Abrahamic and Sinaitic Covenants violates the doctrine of particular redemption. Hebrews 9 reminds us that God's covenant requires mediation through blood. The Passover Lamb brought physical deliverance for all Israel because all ate it. The Annual Atonement (Lev. 16) was offered on behalf of the whole assembly, all Israel. Of course, these sacrifices could not cleanse the conscience, but their design was for the covenant people of God in the Old Testament. If Christ's sacrifice is offered up only for His elect people as the "New Covenant in My blood" (Lk. 22:20; Mk. 14:24), how can the unregenerate children of believers be said to be "in" the New Covenant, church, and kingdom without an effectual Mediator? They cannot. Indeed, Heb. 9:15 defines Christ as an effectual Mediator of the New Covenant to insure that "those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance." Can one be said to be "in" the New Covenant or church without a Mediator? Not on the basis of the concept of the church in the New Testament. Though all would agree that false professors were addressed as members of the church for which Christ's effectual blood was shed, yet they were so addressed on the basis of their profession, not on the basis of their parents' faith. Even then, they were to be put out of the church if their profession proved spurious by their life. Yet there was some outward evidence to designate them "in" the church. But there is no clear basis for saying infants of believers are "in" the church unless we are also willing to say that they are "in" the "church of God which He purchased with His own blood" (Acts 20:28). No, if an infant is said to be "in" the New Covenant administration of the one covenant of grace and "in" the church without effectual mediation, severe violence is done to the biblical truth that "Christ loved the church and give Himself up for her." Can an unregenerate infant be called "in" the church by Christ's effectual mediation and never receive salvation? Absolutely not. Therefore, violence is done to the doctrine of particular redemption.


The covenant of grace requires the blood of an effectual Mediator. Christ is the Circumcision and Isaac of the Abrahamic Covenant. Christ is the Paschal Lamb and Annual Atonement for its continuation through Sinai. And Christ is the sole Mediator of the New Covenant fulfillment as the effectual sacrifice for all those considered "in" the New Covenant, Christ's redeemed church. These redeemed ones–and only these–are the New Covenant participants.
_________________________
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin

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#14053 - Tuesday, April 27, 2004 5:43 AM Re: Continuity in Old and NT
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for those links Prestor:

The second one, Welty's, doesn't work for some reason. As I would like to read it, could you check it out and correct it?

In Him,

Gerry

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#14054 - Tuesday, April 27, 2004 7:49 AM Re: Infants and Particular Redemption [Re: MarieP]
Henry Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: Monday, October 27, 2003
Posts: 377
Loc: The Great White North, Eh!
I, too, would really like to see a paedobaptist response to that quote.
_________________________
(Latin phrase goes here.)

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#14055 - Tuesday, April 27, 2004 8:08 AM Re: Infants and Particular Redemption [Re: MarieP]
Anonymous
Unregistered


As I understand it, nobody upheld baptismal regeneration on this matter, which is what Fred seems to be addressing. I make no claim that the children are part of the elect, only part of the visible Church, as are many empty baptists.

Are we claiming every reformed baptists is part of the true covenant? If you answer 'no', this dilemma is the same for both sides.

Quote:
If Christ's sacrifice is offered up only for His elect people as the "New Covenant in My blood" (Lk. 22:20; Mk. 14:24), how can the unregenerate children of believers be said to be "in" the New Covenant, church, and kingdom without an effectual Mediator?


And there is what I see as the dilemma......a strawman. If I misunderstand this, please let me know. If not, please quit equivocating the visible church with the trully elect, for they are not the same, not at any visible assembly I know of.


God bless,

william

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#14056 - Tuesday, April 27, 2004 9:14 AM Re: Infants and Particular Redemption [Re: MarieP]
Wes Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Saturday, August 25, 2001
Posts: 3553
Loc: Northwest Indiana, USA
Marie,

Paedobaptists don't say their children are believers. Neither does being the offspring of Abraham make you a believer. It's apparent that Credo's don't understand the Paedo position and I'm sure I don't understand your view as well as I should.

The Covenant of Grace can be viewed from two different perspectives: individually and corporately. If I understand the credobaptist view correctly it can or should be looked at only individually. However if you want to better understand the paedobaptist view you have to understand how it can be viewed corporately. In the Old Testament the children of Israel were the covenant people of God and in the New Testament the Church of Jesus Christ has that distinction.

In one sense the Covenant of Grace is a purely legal arrangement for the realization of a spiritual end, and in another sense it's an end in itself.


Wes
_________________________
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts

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