The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum SALEM WITCH TRIALS

This is probably of no interest to anyone else, but recently my son and I watched a show on TV about the Salem witch trials and then last night there was a documentary on Salem, Mass. As I watched it I was shocked at the way the city now even has their own "official" witch! And a witch and her broom stick is the symbol on the side of the police cars.<br>There are about 2,000 known practicing witches just in Salem.<br><br>Does anyone have any thoughts on the witch trials? Just curious if any has the same thoughts I do.

Linda:<br><br>I have done no study of it but I have read a book by Chadwick Hansen who is an unbelieving historian who never the less does a fairly objective secular analysis of the situation. While his views on the actual spiritual phenomena involved are of course incorrect, he does bring out some interesting points from the public records of the trials which are a matter of public record. <br><br>There were simply too many phenomena observed in open courtrooms to be made up. I'm talking about gross changes in physical tissues that cannot be accounted for by hysterical physiology which is what the unbeliever wants to attribute these things to, and Hansen does, for the most part, but you could tell that even he was having a hard time making this stick in some cases. <br><br>There are also some interesting quotes from Cotton Mather who observed some of the phenomena in some of the people involved. As you know, Cotton Mather was a puritan pastor of the time who had also studied medicine, so his accounts are particularly credible in my view. I would suggest anyone interested in the reality of Satan and his minions read what Cotton Mather had to say. There is also an interesting analysis of the politics of the time and how the religious men of the day were also politically connected and I agree with the author that situation could have been handled better from a Biblical perspective, and my own view after reading this account was that some of the errors made by the religious leaders of the time, and they did mishandle the situation it seems, was due in part to ignorance and some was due to mixed motives, but that is my own view having read only one account of what I believe to be a fairly "objective" secular analyis. I would like to read an account by a true believer of some maturity who has gone back and studied the original records of the trials as this man did.<br><br>As to the TV account, I sometimes watch these but usually don't for I have learned that the agenda is invariably twisted to present scripture and God in the most blasphemous fashion, but as you said, one can often pick up interesting facts about ancillary issues such as the number of witches currently practicing in Salem, all or most "good" or "white" witches of course.<br><br>Gerry

Thanks for the insight. What did you read by Cotton Mather, and yes a great theologian.<br><br>I would love to go back a research the trials. I am reading a book right now called "Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices" and I am convinced that most sadly are ignorant of his devices.<br><br>The show I watched was first to see exactly what there slant was, but really my 19 year old son wanted to watch it and I wanted to be able to answer questions as he is a great learner. The show last night was really about a tragedy that has happened in Salem recently, but I watche it to see what the town was like today. I was really saddened.<br><br>Where do you live Gerry? I don't know much about you.<br><br>Linda

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Does anyone have any thoughts on the witch trials?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Well, as a matter of fact, I do. I think the witch trials have been totally distorted by history, particularly history that hates Puritanism. A couple of things to note: First, there was witchcraft practiced in Salem, so the Puritans were right to be alarmed. Second, Though they should have been alarmed, I think the Puritans took the wrong approach to dealing with the situation. (What an understatement, right? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh[/img]) They utilized RCC medieval techniques in determining witch craft, rather than principles of dealing with factiousness from the Bible alone. In some ways, the attitude displayed by the authorities hunting witches was a tenplate for charismatic subjectivism. Essentially, a person was determined to be a witch due to subjective means, rather than his or her testimony and objective character. For instance, if one of the young girls, supposedly under the control of witches, suddenly freaked out in the presence of a particular individual, then that individual was a witch, because the presence of a witch was thought to have an effect on its subjects under bewitchment. Thus, these young girls could condemn innocent people just by a display of their behavior in their presence, even though the display was fake. Then third, history seems to forget that it was Puritan pastors such as Cotton Mathers, who brought the witch trials to an end. They essentially did this by condemning the subjective manner the authorities were using to determine a witch. <br>When you usually see a TV movie dramatizing the Salem Witch trials, the Christians are made to look like Fundamentalist KJV only barefoot Hillbilly types dressed in Pilgrim garb, the witches are made to look like innocent people who are only desiring the freedom to worship as they please, in this case earth loving paganism as opposed to Puritanical religious control, and the authorities that stop the trial are portrayed as secular, prerevolutionary frist amendment types, who had the foresight to see the need for religious freedom for all men. It is totally ridiculous. Of course, I think there is another movie version that shows the witch trials being a big cover to help the local pastor hide an affair he was having with a teenage girl.<br><br>If you can find it, Chadwick Hanson's "Witchcraft in Salem" is an excellent read that tries to stay objective to the historical events.<br><br>Fred.

Thanks for your insight. And could not agree more that the TV makes it look ridiculous, but since I was sick and my 19 year old son wanted to watch it, I was interested in what the take would be on it, as I have read alot about them over the years.<br><br>I too know that the Puritans of course look like idiots and the witches look like innocents, but I did want to hear what your thinking was. <br><br>DO you know where I might be able to find the book you mentioned?<br><br>Thanks

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]DO you know where I might be able to find the book you mentioned?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>I saw a copy at Archives in Pasadena a few weeks ago, but you could try any used book site on the internet. Maybe abes.com or even Amazon.<br><br>Fred<br>

Fredman:<br><br>I agree with the bulk of what you have said, but as I said in my earlier post, Hansons book, though remarkably objective for an unbeliever, is still secular in it's viewpoint and does attribute the phenomena solely to hysteria, which some of it undoubtedly was, but some of it undoubtedly was not, and Hanson, not seeing Satan for who and what he is does not credit his powers. Also, while Cotton Mather was instrumental in bringing an objective position to the error of some of the other Puritans, there was, as you correctly point out, considerable problems with the handling of the situation by several of them, not the least of which was their political mixed motives, in addition to their faulty theology. <br><br>Gerry

Linda:<br><br>I'm posting between appointments at work today so I'll have to get back to you later on your questions.<br><br>Gerry

This interests me somewhat because I apparently have an ancestor burned at the stake (she flipped out when her baby died and was "seeing things" so they tossed her to the flames).<br><br>Were the ones doing the burning Calvinists?<br><br>SS

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Were the ones doing the burning Calvinists?</font><hr></blockquote><p>SS,<br><br>It is surely possible that some of those who took part in the much over exaggerated "Salem Witch Trials" were people who professed to be Christians and who embraced Calvinism. But, I'm curious as to why you would ask the question.<br><br>Oh..... and welcome to The Highway Discussion Board! <br><br>In His Grace,

Thank you Pilgrim.<br><br>I was just curious as to their religious beliefs as I ponder what drove them to do what they did.<br><br>Now it may be true that their are over romanticized versions of the Salem Witch Trials but many people were indeed executed nevertheless.<br><br>My ancestor was Alice Lake which you can read about here: http://members.aol.com/alicebeard/lake.html<br><br>I am not certain this is my ancestor since there is conflicting data about her descendants but it is a definite possibility because the descendant list of Alice Lake at this site does indeed list known ancestors of mine (John Philips and Ann Burden).<br><br>So this interests me.<br><br>SS

SS,<br><br>It would indeed be interesting if one of your relatives was a victim of the "Salem Witch Trials".<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]I was just curious as to their religious beliefs as <span style="background-color:yellow;">I ponder what [color:red]drove</font color=red> them to do what they did</span>.</font><hr></blockquote><p>I think it would be prudent not to conclude that Calvinism as a biblical theology is somehow inherently responsible for whatever happened at Salem during that period of time. There is absolutely nothing within the entire cosmology or ecclesiastical polities which are taught within Calvinism that would mandate the burning of an alleged "witch" at the stake. In other words, those involved did so apart from what Calvinism teaches and not due to what Calvinism teaches. From your remark, can I assume that you know relatively little about what Calvinism actually is? or what it teaches? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/scratch.gif" alt="scratch" title="scratch[/img] This is an honest question and is not intended to demean you in any way. I think it is good that you did make the remark and that you are here so that such erroneous assumptions can be clarified and put right. Burning the proverbial "strawman" may be fun for some, but it doesn't do much to promote truth. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink[/img]<br><br>In His Grace,

I think it would be prudent not to conclude that Calvinism as a biblical theology is somehow inherently responsible for whatever happened at Salem during that period of time. There is absolutely nothing within the entire cosmology or ecclesiastical polities which are taught within Calvinism that would mandate the burning of an alleged "witch" at the stake. In other words, those involved did so apart from what Calvinism teaches and not due to what Calvinism teaches.<br><br>SS: Yes well that may be true, I do tend to believe that these such actions can and often are rooted in their religious beliefs. For example, Calvin found no problem sending Michael Servetus to the fire under the pretext of promulgating the logical end to his religious beliefs.<br><br> From your remark, can I assume that you know relatively little about what Calvinism actually is? or what it teaches? <br><br>SS: I understand the belief system sufficiently well with respect to their main beliefs although I do not dabble into the peripheral issues Calvinists like to discuss unique to their beliefs.<br><br><br>This is an honest question and is not intended to demean you in any way. I think it is good that you did make the remark and that you are here so that such erroneous assumptions can be clarified and put right. Burning the proverbial "strawman" may be fun for some, but it doesn't do much to promote truth. <br><br><br>SS: Well it does seem that the Witch trials were drive by religious fervor. I have not previously inquired into the nature of those beliefs and that was my question.<br><br>SS

SS,<br><br>From what you have said in your reply, may I assume that you are not a Christian? Just curiosity, once again! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin[/img]<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Yes well that may be true, I do tend to believe that these such actions can and often are rooted in their religious beliefs. For example, Calvin found no problem sending Michael Servetus to the fire under the pretext of promulgating the logical end to his religious beliefs.</font><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, this is a popular caricature of John Calvin. However, it isn't based upon fact. And, just for the sake of argument, even if Calvin "had no problem sending Servetus to the stake", it certainly isn't true that one should conclude that this act was "the logical end to his religious beliefs. For a more factual record of what actually happened at Geneva and what part Calvin really played in the State's execution of Michael Servetus, go here: Was Geneva a Theocracy?<br><br>In His Grace,

Pilgrim<br><br>Not long ago I read something written by a puritan pastor that spoke against witch burning. I am in the process of looking for that article again, if I find it I will post it here, or at least the link.<br><br>Tom