You asked about the LDS faith (and it would be irresponsible to lump LDS in with Catholics) and what I have heard from RCIA is that most parishes will decide to rebaptize those who were baptized Mormon.
Yes, they baptize in the name of the the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; but according to them who is the Father? He is a created being that started out quasipotent and ascended to the divine position he (lower case used intentionally) now occupies. Joseph Smith expressed a hope that he will one day occupy the place god now occupies as god moves on to yet a more exalted position. Sound familiar? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/threaddevil.gif" alt="" />
And who, according to them, is the Son? He is also a concieved and created being raised by the father and his heavenly wife. (who knows who that could be) He, and his sibling, Lucifer, both presented plans for salvation; the father accepted Jesus's and rejected Lucifer's casting him down to earth.
And who then is the Holy Spirit, according to them? Not much emphasis is made of their holy spirit. In fact Joseph Smith at one time referred to him as the "mind" of the other two. (Lectures on Faith 48-49)
These beliefs contradict even the Book of Mormon, and are derived from the ever deviating sermons that Smith gave as his church developed.
Can you see why most RCIA directors hesitate to give validity to Mormon baptisms? But there is no reason, other than pure animosity toward the RCC, to reject a Catholic baptism as our accurate doctrine of the Trinity has remained constant these 2000 years. There is only one Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and in the name of this most blessed and holy Trinity, we baptize.
In the Sacred Heart of Christ and the Immaculate Heart of Mary
Yes, you're right sir, and their beliefs about the other two are equally disturbing; please refer to my post as I have spelled this out in some detail.
Personally I find it hard to believe of a true born-again Christian remaining in the RCC. I believe that God will eventually lead them out of it like He did with my mother. (Please don't take this as a personal attack on you-you seem to be quite sensitive on this issue)
My testimony may change your thinking. I was raised in a Nazarine Church in a protestant family. I got on my knees as a 7 year old boy and asked Jesus into my heart. I was baptized at nine and raised with all the riches of the protestant tradition that I still treasure today. But more than anything; my personal relationship with Jesus; you see, I knew Jesus since I was very little and learned to love Him more and more as I grew up.
But when I became an adult I closely scrutinized the Bible and found protestantism to be in error in many respects, and that my true beliefs were more in line with the Catholic faith, and so I made an adult decision to convert to Catholicism. That was 11 years ago. Today my dad is a pastor in California, and all my family and closest friends are protestants. Do you see why I love you all here and consider you brethren?
Your belief that God will eventually lead a born again Christian out of RCC implies that we don't really know any better and that as we learn the truth, we will leave the Church. But my decision was well informed, and the more I learn about both Protestantism and Catholicism, the more assured I am that I made the right decision. I am a Catholic-with-eyes-wide-open.
Yes, I am sensitive, and I apologize to Pilgrim, averagefellar, semperreformanda, and any other that have felt my teeth sink deep. There are two factors I think contribute to this; one is how dear and precious to me is my relationship to Christ Jesus. I am a born-again Christian and everyday experience the evidence of the new birth. Perhaps a good analogy, for you married folk, is for someone to tell you that you aren't married to your spouse and have no relationship in that regard. Wouldn't that quickly get a rise out of you?
The second factor is that I'm the sole Catholic in a Reformation chat forum. Sometimes you may see my "treed cougar" stance as I become defensive, thinking everyone is against me. I know I bring this on myself voluntarily participating as a Catholic here, but this is a side effect; for the most part I enjoy our somewhat turbulant fellowship here.
And so, I hope everyone here will bear with me when I have an "episode", and simply roll your eyes saying "here he goes again," instead of regarding my presence here as intolerable. And in return, I'll try to grow thicker skin, like I do with my section chief and platoon sergeant.
And I again rejoice that your mother found Christ by any means. From an eternal perspective, that's all that really matters.
"Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen."
James you appear to have a wonderful testimony and indeed I hope it is genuine. I say, “I hope” as you have claimed to have “found Protestantism to be in error in many respects.” Thus, this raises some questions (1) what doctrines within Protestantism are in error? (2) what truths are in Catholicism are truth against such alleged Protestant errors?, etc. Right now, as you know, to most of us you are a “cult member” with your eyes wide-shut (but, Luther was for a time as well).
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There are two factors I think contribute to this;
While your other two reasons are admirably stated, I think there is a third reason that all of us here hope is the main reason (by God’s sovereignty) why you are here; to learn some truths about real Protestantism giving you space to repent from your Catholic views. I am sure you are not naive and thus understand that “heresy” is not allowed here. The moderators at The Highway consider the Catholic faith, as I do, to be heretical. Thus, the purpose of even allowing you to post at all is in grace hoping/praying that you will see and follow the truth of God’s Word. Thus, my responses to you, as I am sure many other responses, are evangelical in nature. Please note that you are being prayed for in this respect.
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And so, I hope everyone here will bear with me when I have an "episode", and simply roll your eyes saying "here he goes again," instead of regarding my presence here as intolerable. And in return, I'll try to grow thicker skin, like I do with my section chief and platoon sergeant.
We hope you are here to do more than grow a “thicker skin.” Hopefully you will more clearly see what is on the “tough and yet tender skins” (the Bible—sheep skins, et. al.) and thus repent of much which you now entertain as truth.
I think there is a third reason that all of us here hope is the main reason (by God's sovereingty) why you are here; to learn some truths about real Protestantism giving you space to repent from your Catholic views.
First, (and I say this kindly) you aren't speaking for everyone. For many, I would speculate, I'm here to give them something to protest, and the last thing they would want is for me to turn protestant, for then the fun would end. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" />
And second, I'm not sure if you read closely enough, but I was well instructed in the tenants of Protestantism, and then explored thorougly the tenants of Catholicism before making an informed and deliberate choice. Please don't hold your breath, you will most certainly suffocate! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" />
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I am sure that you are not naive and thus understand that "heresy" is not allowed here. The moderators at The-Highway consider the Catholic faith, as I do, to be heretical.
Yes, and that's why I tread carefully and have clarified to Pilgrim from the start that I don't seek to undermine the syllibus if this forum, nor do I seek converts. But with this said, I will not fear to speak what have found with certainty to be true, for I ascertain that being a coward is far worse than being kicked out of this forum. (As regrettable as that would be, I've grown to love you all.)
Thank you for your concerns and prayers, but as you can see, I'm settled on my beliefs.
It is always sad to see one say, "I'm settled on my beliefs," when those beliefs are heretical. Your informed and deliberate deceptive choice reminds me of Pharaoh who also was settled on his heretical beliefs and hardened his heart. In God's sovereign will another option for you being here (which I purposely did not mention in my previous post) is for your further hardening (as Moses spoke to Pharaoh, so this forum speaks to you). Again, I beseech you to repent and accept the truth—renounce the Catholic Church and its teachings. Without true repentance and the acceptance of the Truth we can only wait and see God's Red Sea approach and consume you.
To clarify my other post, I believe my infant baptism to be invalid even if it had been performed in a protestant church ( and mostly because my parents were not believers at the time) and honestly I can't say that I hold to any infant baptism at this point. You didn't have to explain about Mormon errors. I certainly know them (I have a Mormon neighbor that I've had deep conversation with). Anyways I was saying that as a kind of sarcastic example and not with any seriousness with my question. And I read your testimony. Very interesting. Will it change my mind. Honestly, not at all. I have to agree with J Edwards and Pilgrim. I would consider the RCC as a "cult" like J Edwards said also because there are just too many things out of line with Scripture. I have to say I believe too that you have deliberately (and from my view unfortunately) chosen error. None the less, it is interesting to read your point of view and you're the only catholic I know that's deliberately chosen that path.
First, (and I say this kindly) you aren't speaking for everyone. For many, I would speculate, I'm here to give them something to protest, and the last thing they would want is for me to turn protestant, for then the fun would end. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bananas.gif" alt="" />
Anyone who has the attitude to as you say: "I'm here to give them something to protest, and the last thing they would want is for me to turn protestant, for then the fun would end." I would question if they genuinely care about people (to put it mildly).
I am not a monitor on the Highway, so I hope I am not over stepping my bounds here, but based on the above and other statements you made in your post, I would say it is time for you to move on.
If as you say, you are set in your beliefs, then it is no use discussing these matters any more. Unless of course your real agenda is to get new converts to the Roman Catholic faith.
Pilgrim and the rest of the monitors have been more than a little patient with you and your heretical beliefs. Anyone on the Highway, who has read enough of my posts, knows that I seldom make posts of this sort. In fact I have been accused on occasion of being too nice to the wolves.
Anyone who has the attitude to as you say: "I'm here to give them something to protest, and the last thing they would want is for me to turn protestant, for then the fun would end." I would question if they genuinely care about people (to put it mildly).
Well, sir, I was hoping you'd understand the humorous context in which I wrote this, but it appears I have failed to adequately convey this. If you think that I don't care about you or the members of this post, then perhaps you haven't been paying attention, for I have expressed my affection for the people here just as I do for my family and closest friends.(All protestants as well.) If I took some of the scathing remarks I often receive from the members here (many more than you get) as a sign that people don't care for me, then I would equally be off the mark.
The members here have expressed these following sentiments to me:
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"You're in my prayers."
"I like you here <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />you would not believe how much I learn from your post and everybody responding. It's a great read."
"I genuinely enjoy your presence here."
Off the top of my head and among many more that I remember along the same lines, and don't think for a moment I don't hold these members just as dearly in my heart, which brings me to your second statement:
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I am not a Monitor on the Highway, so I hope I am not overstepping my bounds here, but based on the above and other statements you made in your post, I would say it is time for you to move on.
Tom, sir, just a few points I should make:
1. As I already pointed out there are many here who already do care for me, and whether you find it tasteful or not, they do enjoy being able to test Protestant doctrines in thoughtful discussion with an informed Catholic.
2. You suggest this based on my unwavering convictions in my Catholic faith. If my beliefs were whimsical and easily changed, not only would I be a bad Catholic, I would also make a terrible Protestant.
3. Only once, and just recently, has a Moderator rebuked me on a statement I made, and in response I demonstrated a willingness to comply. I will always strive to be sensitive to the members here and respectful of the forum's syllibus, but perhaps you may have overlooked that I'm not a guest here, I'm a member, with the same rights and privelidges as any other to express what I believe; as I'm sure you're not unaware, I'm not the only one who holds beliefs differing from the Forum's. (if everyone was of like mind, this would be a dull forum indeed!)
4. You retain freedom of association, and if you find it intolerable that I will not bend in my convictions, you are certainly at liberty to ignore my future posts. In fact, unless I'm mistaken, Pilgrim has designed this web site so you can do just that. Simply click on my profile and you'll see the option at the bottom of the screen.
Perhaps you are a little hasty in assessing how I fit in this forum, but I do have to agree with you that Pilgrim and the moderators here have been more than gracious and patient with me, especially in suffering my oft oversensitivity. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Maybe, sir, you could do the same for me.
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
J_Edwards said: It is always sad to see one say, "I'm settled on my beliefs," when those beliefs are heretical. Your informed and deliberate deceptive choice reminds me of Pharaoh who also was settled on his heretical beliefs and hardened his heart. In God's sovereign will another option for you being here (which I purposely did not mention in my previous post) is for your further hardening (as Moses spoke to Pharaoh, so this forum speaks to you). Again, I beseech you to repent and accept the truth—renounce the Catholic Church and its teachings. Without true repentance and the acceptance of the Truth we can only wait and see God's Red Sea approach and consume you.
Sir? So you are saying that I can believe something with unshakeable conviction and still be wrong? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />oo:
Well, my friend, then so can you. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
carpe cerevesaSeize the beer! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" />
Baptism is a sacrament, not a work, and in scripture it is itimately tied (not to our salvation) but to our conversion, (which essentiall IS our salvation) Protestants' deliberate ignorance of the multiple scriptures that clearly say this causes me to wonder just what tota scriptura, sola scriptura really means to them.
And it unnerves me when they turn around and say that WE are unbiblical! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/wow1.gif" alt="" />
"knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold...but with the precious blood of Christ!"
Popish Heresy! Baptism is a sacrament, but it is also a work of man obeying the Scriptures. In addition, baptism offers NO SALVATION to its recipient, but this has already been addressed and gone effectively unanswered by you.
Sir? So you are saying that I can believe something with unshakeable conviction and still be wrong? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />oo:
That sure was a convincing argument of your faith. Did Pharaoh think he was going to make it through the Red Sea? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />
