I am concidering getting involved in a duscussion on another board, but I am not sure I have the time at the moment to put a lot of time to the discussion. The following is what I am concidering responding to.
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Point 2 Faith precedes regeneration, not the other way around.
Romans 5:2 Col. 2:11-12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through faith of the operation of God, who hath raised Him from the dead. Notice then that it is through faith that we are raised. We are not raised to have faith.
I believe this person is confusing conversion with regeneration, but I am wondering how best to get that point accross.
My first reaction is to note that the phrase "risen with him through faith by the power [operation] of God" is directly related to the next phrase "who has risen Him from the dead." The rising through faith has as the same source as Christ being raised from the dead, God almighty. Paul is essentially saying that the reason why a person is raised by faith is that it is given to him to do so, just as God gave the power for Christ to raise from the dead. In a nutshell, these passages are affirming regeneration begetting faith as the Bible teaches, not this hokey faith begets regeneration nonsense most evangelicals believe [along with your Lutheran detractor]
Fred
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
It would appear that you got sucked in by this Lutheran in that you simply accepted his premise that Colossians 2:12 is referring to regeneration, when in fact I propose, that the text has absolutely nothing to do with the "birth from above", wherein a new nature is created and faith results. What Paul is teaching is the marvelous identity that a believer shares with the death and resurrection of Christ, which benefits were bestowed when faith was exercised, and which was symbolized in baptism. Perhaps, William Hendriksen's comments on this text will help:
As a further description of the circumcision which the Colossians had already received the apostle continues: having been buried with him in y o u r baptism in which y o u were also raised with him. Meaning:
(1) Christ suffered, died, was buried in y o u r stead and for your benefit. He bore the guilt and punishment of the law for you. He took upon himself the curse that rested upon y o u (Gal. 3:13). When by sovereign grace y o u embraced Christ as y o u r Savior and Lord, y o u received the assurance that y o u r former guilt-laden, damnable selves had been buried with him, and that y o u r state with reference to God’s holy law had changed from that of objects of condemnation to that of recipients of justification (Rom. 8:1-4; 5:1). Accordingly, not only were y o u buried with him but y o u were also raised with him.
(2) By means of his entire work of humiliation, including burial, Christ procured for y o u the work of the Holy Spirit (John 16:7). Hence, y o u r s is not only justification but also sanctification, gradual spiritual renewal. The Spirit has implanted in y o u r hearts the seed of the new life (John 3:3, 5). “Y o u died, and y o u r life is hid with Christ in God” (Col. 3:3). Hence, also in this sense, y o u were buried with him and y o u were raised with him.
But why does Paul connect “in y o u r baptism” with this having been buried with Christ and having been raised with him? He does not do this because he attaches any magical efficacy to the rite of baptism. See I Cor. 1:14-17; cf. I Peter 3:21. In the passage now under discussion the apostle definitely excludes the idea that the act of baptizing, in virtue of the action itself, and independent of the condition of the heart of them who here and now professed to believe the gospel, has spiritual value. He carefully adds: through faith in the operative power of God who raised him from the dead. The man who hears the gospel as it is proclaimed must give his heart to the almighty God whose energizing power raised Christ from the dead. He must also believe that the spiritual power that proceeds from the risen Savior (Phil. 3:10) will bestow upon him all he needs for body and soul, for time and eternity.
(William Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary: Colossians and Philemon, Baker, 1964, pp. 115, 116)
What makes you think that I got sucked in? In fact if you look at my post again, you will see that I was not sucked in at all. I am just wondering how best to approach the matter. At this point I am not even sure I want to get involved in the conversation.
By the way, I didn't know this person was a Lutheran.
Again, the best way to approach this individual, IMHO, is to reject his erroneous interpretation of the Colossian passage on the basis of sound exegesis. If you would do THAT, then everything else this person puts forth in his attempt to put regeneration subsequent to faith and dependent upon it is mute.
It appeared to me that you "bought" his approach, not necessarily his conclusion and were wondering how one would counter what appeared, at least on the surface, a text that supported the notion that faith preceded regeneration.
As for your decision to get involved in the discussion, you should decide whether or not you are capable of refuting this man's arguments, if the person is looking for answers, whether or not he is possibly teachable, etc.
Lastly, whether this person is Lutheran or not I am not quite sure. After reading pages in that and other threads, I may have him confused with someone else who was also espousing blatant error and claiming to be Lutheran. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I am the one who thought Tom's interaction was with a Lutheran. I had a specific post at another site in mind, in which I have seen the regular Lutherans I am familiar with posting their responses. If I am wrong, I sort of jumped to conclusions, but hey, I have had discussions with Lutherans that believe exactly as Tom describes, so I am not being too irrelevant.
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
Unless by regeneration they mean the renewal which follows justification by faith/regeneration, they are teaching contrary to their confession. It is Lutheran view that regeneration occurs simultaneously with justification by faith. Any other view is a denial of divine monergism.
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For, in the first place, the word regeneratio, that is, regeneration, is used so as to comprise at the same time the forgiveness of sins for Christ's sake alone, and the succeeding renewal which the Holy Ghost works in those who are justified by faith. Then, again, it is [sometimes] used pro remissione peccatorum et adoptione in filios Dei, that is, so as to mean only the remission of sins, and that we are adopted as sons of God. And in this latter sense the word is much and often used in the Apology, where it is written: Iustificatio est regeneratio, that is, Justification before God is regeneration. St. Paul, too, has employed these words as distinct from one another, Titus 3, 5: He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Ghost. 20] As also the word vivificatio, that is, making alive, has sometimes been used in a like sense. For when man is justified through faith (which the Holy Ghost alone works), this is truly a regeneration, because from a child of wrath he becomes a child of God, and thus is transferred from death to life, as it is written: When we were dead in sins, He hath quickened us together with Christ, Eph. 2, 5. Likewise: The just shall live by faith, Rom. 1, 17; Hab. 2, 4. In this sense the word is much and often used in the Apology.
Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Righteousness of Faith
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Like I mentioned too, I spent over an hour reading through several threads on that Board and remember clearly that there was a Lutheran there arguing against Calvinism, etc... and, it is very well possible I also confused him with this other person. So, you can't take ALL the credit for my possible faux pas! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
I will keep what you said in mind if I decide to get involved in that discussion. I am well aware of my limitations when dealing with issues such as this. My abilities come from my own studies as a layman. That is why I came to this forum to see if I could get any advice before I actually got myself involved. This particular individual has been through seminary, so he has some knowledge of hermeneutics. He also claims to be a big fan of many Calvinist writers such as Owen and Edwards. He even seems to have more respect for them than many Arminian (which he claims to be) writers.
This may all be a mute point, because for some reason, I am having a hard time logging onto that site. I got a message saying they will be sending me a pass word, but that was last night and I still haven't got one. Oh well, maybe that is God's way to tell me to stay out of it. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I didn’t mention which site I was talking about. But if you are interested in knowing, you can find it here: http://a1m.org/index.php Which is a Calvinist site owned by Steve Camp. The thread is called: T.U.L.I.P Here we go <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And the poster goes by the name SaintJohn.
It is Lutheran view that regeneration occurs simultaneously with justification by faith. Any other view is a denial of divine monergism.
(Fred) Well, the biblical view is that regeneration (a monergistic work of God) preceeds any faith contributed by the sinner, because regeneration is the imparting of new life to the sinner so that he can believe with saving faith and thus be justified. Any other view (including the Lutheran view you promote) is synergistic, ie, man-centered.
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
So, how long does this period of regeneration without faith last? Until we earn enough faith so that God will declare us righteous? Or, until we can be declared righteous apart from the faith that the Holy Spirit alone works through the process of sanctification?
So, how long does this period of regeneration without faith last? Until we earn enough faith so that God will declare us righteous? Or, until we can be declared righteous apart from the faith that the Holy Spirit alone works through the process of sanctification?
(Fred) There is not a "period" between the two, at least in my estimation. The work of God breathing spiritual life into sinners and giving them the gift of saving faith to believe the gospel is instantaneous. The Bible is quite clear that regeneration is a work of God alone and that it is a work that imparts the gift of saving faith as well as the gift of repentance. For example, Acts 16:14 states that God opened Lydia's heart (regeneration) so that she heeded the gospel message preached by Paul (believed with saving faith), and from what we know from the whole of scripture, declared justified. The divine act of regeneration and Lydia's belief by faith in the gospel and her justification happened in a moment.
The error I am guarding against is this notion you have irregularly proclaimed in various posts that suggests faith begets regeneration or the quasi-Arminian idea you suggested that sinners are totally depraved except in their will to believe.
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
There is not a "period" between the two, at least in my estimation. The work of God breathing spiritual life into sinners and giving them the gift of saving faith to believe the gospel is instantaneous. The Bible is quite clear that regeneration is a work of God alone and that it is a work that imparts the gift of saving faith as well as the gift of repentance.
I agree. Isn't that exactly what I said?
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It is Lutheran view that regeneration occurs simultaneously with justification by faith.
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The error I am guarding against is this notion you have irregularly proclaimed in various posts that suggests faith begets regeneration or the quasi-Arminian idea you suggested that sinners are totally depraved except in their will to believe.
Faith begets regeneration? A will to believe before regeneration? These ideas are pure Pelagian heresy! Perhaps, you have confused me with someone else?
Faith begets regeneration? A will to believe before regeneration? These ideas are pure Pelagian heresy! Perhaps, you have confused me with someone else?
(fred) Nope, you are the same Speratus I engaged in another thread entitled The role of works in our salvation. If you go to that thread over on the Theology Discussion Forum and read the entire interchange with many other folks like Pilgrim and Joe, you constantly waffled between holding to some form of freewill before regeneration and regeneration begetting freewill. In fact many folks tried to alert you to this inconsistency, but you tended to either ignore them altogether, or explain your position away to the "mystery of God." On one hand you would affirm orthodoxy, and on the other, some convoluted ideas drawn from neo-Lutheran doctrine. In this post, especially addressing the Lutheran individual I believe Tom is debating on another site, the error to guard against is Tom's detractor insisting that men have freewill (due in part to the "christ event') and that freewill can beget regeneration.
Fred
"Ah, sitting - the great leveler of men. From the mightest of pharaohs to the lowest of peasants, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" M. Burns
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