The only thing I do have which puts me on at least some solid ground is the knowledge that what I have discussed is very much along the lines of the teachings of Scott Hahn at Franciscan University of Steubenville. As a professor, and a published author of books on this subject, his work would be under scrutiny for heresy, and as such, has not been condemned.
Sorry I cannot do better than that at this time.
Cordially in Christ,
Brother Ed
So why should I trust you to be an arbitrator of true "Roman Catholic teachings" if you don't have the seal of the magisterium or at least some proof showing that you are following in their traditions. Has the Holy See in Rome recognized this Scott Hahn as authoritative? Have they sealed his teachings as coming from the magesterium? Or is he just another Catholic Apologist with no official backing?
You say you speak the truths that are taught by the papacy in Rome. Yet you have nothing to prove this why should we believe you or your teachings? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Ponder.gif" alt="" />
Peter
If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
Rome puts forth a false gospel. Therefore, if Scott hahn is Roman Catholic and he support Roman soteriology, Scott also puts forth a false gospel. Yet that is only one of his many errors due to aligning himself with Rome.
Just to get back to the topic at hand. In reading the thread, not many were actually addressing the title of the thread. One Head on Earth. Can you give me any scriptural or Tradition support for a Head of the Church on earth
"But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. " 1 Cor 11:3 NKJV
"but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- " Eph 4:15 NKJV
"For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. " -- Eph 5:23 NKJV
"And I also say to you that you are Peter, (Greek Petros: A rock, a stone) and on this rock ( Greek Petros: A cliff, a ledge, a large rock or boulder) I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. " Mt 16:18 NKJV (Emphasis added is mine)
My interpretation of that is that Christ called Peter a stone, and then said that upon a much larger stone, a boulder, a cliff ledge type stone, would the Church be built. What stone was Jesus referring too.. I would say that it was Himself. He is seen in scripture as a stone in numerous places, a rock that cannot be shaken, a foundation stone that is laid, a stone which causes men to stumble, and a rock which makes them fall. While I do believe Peter was given authority to lead the disciples, and manage this motley group of disciples, I don't believe that the Church's foundations have been built upon him and his Apostolic authority. There is one Rock upon which the Church is built, and that is the same rock which followed our forefathers in the desert.. that rock is Christ
"and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock (petra) that followed them, and that Rock (petra) was Christ. " -- 1 Cor 10:4 NKJV
( and some will note that the greek word used here is petra-- not petros. I think the reason in Matthew that we see Petros is that Jesus is making sure that there is no room for confusion. Peter is a rock, a living stone, ( as are all of us, being built.... "as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood"-- 1 pe 2:5), but of all the stones in this work of art, Christ is the Cornerstone, the foundational stone, the Head stone.. he is the One upon whom the Church is being built.
"Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord" Eph 2:19-21 NKJV
You asked for Scripture as to who was the head of the Church ( Invisible and Visible) on earth. I say that my answer is ( supported by scripture) : Jesus Christ.
The Churchs One foundation is Jesus Christ her Lord She is His new Creation by water and the word. With his own hands He sought her to be His holy bride with His own blood he bought her, and for her life He died.
Elect from every nation, yet one over all the earth Her charter of Salvation: One Lord, One Faith, One birth One Holy Name she blesses, partakes One holy food and to one hope she presses with every grace endued..
Though with a scornful wonder we see her sore oppressed, by schisms rent asunder, by heresies distressed, yet saints their watch are keeping; their cry goes up: How long? And soon the night of weeping shall be the morn of song
Mid toil and tribulation and tumult of her war She waits the consumation of peace forever more Til with the vision glorious, her longing eyes are blest and the great church victorious shall be the church at rest
Yet she on earth hath union with God the three in One and mystic sweet communion with those whose rest is won O happy ones and holy- Lord give us grace that we like them the meek and lowly, on high may dwell with thee.
Last edited by Aslans Singer; Fri Dec 31, 20042:24 AM.
3) If yes, didn't you find the comparison with reformed soteriology a bit disturbing, from your point of view?
Not all presbytrians are reformed in theology. However, I am fairly sure Ray Sutton is quite evangelical in his soteriology. I am going to contact Ray next month and request s signed copy of this book and ask him about his soteriology just to be sure.
Well, yes. It's a very reformed soteriology. It is based on legal contracts which parallel the Suzerainity treaties of the OT.
I like his framework and think it is very accurate. However, what he provides us with is merely the skeleton. The fair beauty of the body proper is this covenantal framework placed in the proper context -- marriage.
Scott Hahn came to Mechanicsburg for a presentation a couple of years ago. I asked him if he was familiar with Sutton's work. He kinda laughed and grinned from ear to ear.
"Yes," he replied, "Ray keeps sending converts to the Church. I personally know of 4 of his graduates who have converted in the last couple of years."
I agree. Sutton's framework helped me work through the Catholic paradigm and understand it. I have read the book about 3 times now...always go back for more. Last time I read it I was hi-liting it like crazy. Sutton makes some statements which, when I read them, make me wonder how it is that he himself isn't in the Church.
Well, maybe some day. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Go back and read my first post again. The concept is quite simple really.
Just let me ask you this: I agree that Jesus is the Head of the Church. But Jesus is in Heaven. How then does He speak to the world here and now on earth?
As a reformed Episcopalian I would think Ray would have some hints of catholicism. I know he prefers a liturgical style of worship and views tradition as important as well. Ray, according to what I have read and been told is very reformed and I am sure dismisses many Roman claims; papal infallibility, mariolatry, a works based soteriology. I am also sure he upholds Sola Fide and at least four points of TULIP, something most romish folks dismiss as false. I have spoke with him by phone twice, briefly, about seminary. That was over a year ago. We briefly spoke about ecclesiology and the need for proper training of future pastors. I'm hoping to meet Ray this summer in person.
Just let me ask you this: I agree that Jesus is the Head of the Church. But Jesus is in Heaven. How then does He speak to the world here and now on earth?
By the Holy Spirit through the Word and the Sacraments.
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
Just let me ask you this: I agree that Jesus is the Head of the Church. But Jesus is in Heaven. How then does He speak to the world here and now on earth?
By the Holy Spirit through the Word and the Sacraments.
I expected that you would say "through the Word". I have not ever heard that God speaks through the Sacraments.
Okay. Agree that God speaks to us through His Word.
But since the Word is not perspicuous in many areas, I guess the real question is this:
WHO is authorized to give a proper interpretation of what has been said?
But since the Word is not perspicuous in many areas
The Word is perspicuous. Human minds are imperfect.
Quote
WHO is authorized to give a proper interpretation of what has been said?
I believe, like other Protestants, in the hermeneutical principle known as the Analogy of Faith; that is, Scripture interprets Scripture. All true believers are priests, and as such all may read the Scripture and understand. However, we are not perfect yet, and so we will not read the Word infallibly. What authorizes the Magisterium, except a tradition which the Magisterium itself attempts to ground in Scripture?
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
