The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Do Christians have personal contact with Jesus?

Hello and cordial greetings to all, This is a question which has perturbed and puzzled me greatly since childhood: Do some Christians have personal spiritual contact with Jesus, and others not? Although I have tried and tried, and tried more, I cannot personally claim to be a Christian. While I thoroughly believe the Bible account, and authentically revere Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the only divinely appointed savior of mankind, my personal spiritual experience throughout life has consistently been that I am unable to spiritually "locate" or contact any such person, despite the fact that both God the Father and the Holy Spirit are very close and readily accessible to me in prayer or spiritual meditation. In my personal experience, there is no one mediating between myself and God the Father, and no mediator necessary. In fact, attempting to introduce a mediator by "conjuring" an imaginary Jesus based on the Bible account rather [i]separates[/i] me from my natural fellowship with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, and creates terrific internal turmoil and confusion. Some Christians I have known claim to have an ongoing, close personal relationship with Jesus Christ through prayer, saying that He is very near to them, and present and accessible always. Other Christians I have spoken with, even some church pastors having extensive Bible knowledge and credentials, claim no such relationship, but simply "believe". Although I personally [i]believe[/i], this has so far done me no practical good in either spiritual or worldly life, but has rather been the root of much suffering and distress over this question of Jesus' spiritual identity. The heart of the matter is that I find I am unable to trust a spiritual savior who I am unable to know, and who separates me from God. Therefore even believing, I feel that I cannot possibly be a Christian, since the introduction of Jesus is antithetical to my natural spiritual communion with God the Father and the Holy Spirit. Any and all light that anyone can shed on this conundrum would be much appreciated. Please however refrain from accusing me of heresy or possession. This is a sincere inquiry. Blessings to all, Savin

Hi, sorry I cannot help you with this,but there are a few people on this board who can.I have a question, why are you so scared ? or maybe you don't know why and that is the blocker between you and trust.
I think more questions need to be ask before somebody here can help you, like are you a J.W.?

Do you have control issues ? Who had the most influence in your life ?

Well that's my thought for today LOL
neicey <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hugs.gif" alt="" />

Savin,

Honestly, you sound confused (and I wonder if you truly are sincere in your question, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt). I will try to respond, but that may mean starting from square one as to what true saving faith is.

In God's own words, faith is "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

1 Peter 1:8-9 says, speaking to Christians, "and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls."

And this in no way is a blind faith, for "since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20).

The truth of Christianity is based upon who God is, and upon what Christ has done on behalf of His people (Eph. 1:3-14):

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

You said, "In fact, attempting to introduce a mediator by 'conjuring' an imaginary Jesus based on the Bible account rather separates me from my natural fellowship with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, and creates terrific internal turmoil and confusion."

This sounds skeptical, and it makes me wonder if this is a genuine question or not. You said that you believed the Bible, so you must know that Christ is very real and is even at this moment at the right hand of God, interceding for His people and reigning over His own. As Heb. 7:25 says, "Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."

Also, why do you think that you are unable to "trust a spiritual savior who I am unable to know, and who separates me from God." It does sound like you are confused over the identity of Jesus. Do you not know that this Jesus is just as much God as are the Father and the Holy Spirit? Consider these verses:

Hebrews 1:1-4
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

John 1:1-4, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Col. 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Rev. 1:4-8
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--
6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Lest there still be any doubt as to Who is speaking:

Rev. 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

It was Christ that Isaiah saw high and lifted up:

John 12:34-41
34 The crowd then answered Him, "We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man?"
35 So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes.
36 "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light " These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.
37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"
39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."
41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.

Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness, From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Add to that the "I AM" statements of Jesus, and the fact that Jesus forgave sins.

Not just those who physically saw Jesus had fellowship with Him. Christians today do as well:

1 John 1:1-3
1 "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--
2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Matthew 28:19-20
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

John 14:16-21
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
19 "After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.
20 "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

Col. 1:25-27
25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,
26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Interesting post.

Suppose.....just suppose.....that instead of looking for Jesus in a spiritual manner, you were to look for and find Him in the way that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches say He is present in the world....on the altar of a Catholic or Orthodox Church in the form of the Eucharist.

Just a thought.

But really, what exactly is it that you are looking for? Reassurance of your state with Him? Remember, faith is the assurance of things not seen.

And faith is that which pleases Him most.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

Thanks to both of you who have responded. I tried to open this topic by describing my situation as succinctly as possible, while being aware that some further clarifications would be needed. Here is some additional background: I was raised Episcopalian as a boy, went away from the church for many years beginning at about age ten, then returned later as an adult with my wife's family to attend the Christian and Missionary Alliance church, a Bible and Trinity believing independent denomination. In the process of attempting to address the question I've described, I have attended many other churches also, including Presbyterian, Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist, Calvary Chapel, several other independents, and yes, even the Jehovah's Witnesses. I then explored eastern religion, esotericism, mysticism (both Christian and other sources) and gnosticism. So far mysticism has come closest to a solution, yet the answer remains incomplete and unsatisfactory. To cast the problem again in other terms, let me say that try as I may, and study as I might, I still do not know who Jesus Christ is. I know all [i]about[/i] Him, but I do not [i]know[/i] Him. SemperReformanda quoted from the Book of John 14: 19 "After a little while the world will no longer see Me, [i]but you will see Me[/i]; because I live, you will live also. 20 "In that day [i]you will know that I am in My Father[/i], and you in Me, and I in you. (Italics mine) But I do [i]not[/i] see Christ. I see [u]only[/u] God the Father and the Holy Spirit. In my direct personal experience, there is no Son in the Father. (Father, please forgive me if this explanation is imperfect or impure.) There is in fact no place or need for Christ in my experience of God. Christ is [i]invisible[/i] to me, and attempting to find Him or force Him into my experience of God causes only pain, and spoils the perfect and natural interaction between God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and myself. So while the reality of Christ makes perfect Biblical, rational and spiritual sense, and I believe in it, that reality has nevertheless never been part of my experience of God to date, [u][i]and I don't know why.[/i][/u] Why am I so frightened? (Very perceptive of you, neicey.) The answer is imbedded in the above. How can I possibly be truly right with God, [i]even knowing Him directly[/i], while not knowing who Jesus is? I have now come to the point of doubting literally everything. Savin

Welcome to the boards Savin.


Solution to what?


Experience has its place but can be unreliable. Gods word says Jesus IS God.


Your findings according to your experience. I am beginning to see a trend here.


Yup. It's all according to your experience as interpreted by you. Interesting epistemology. Gods word dictates truth.


God bless,

william

I suspect that you do NOT know "about Jesus", despite you believing that you do. From what you have shared so far, it seems evident that you know little about who the person of the Lord Jesus Christ is. Doubtless, you know something about Jesus, but what that is exactly is what I question. My questioning is not one to be taken as condemnatory but inquisitorial, i.e., I would like to know what it is you think you know "about" Him. So, it would be extremely helpful if you could at least summarize your understanding of the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I find this more than disturbing that you would claim that, (1) you see only God the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures explicitly say that you cannot "see" God the Father in any manner, shape or form; no man has except the Son. (Jh 1:18; 6:46; cf. Matt 11:27; 1Tim 6:16; 1Jh 4:12, 20). The same is likewise true of the Holy Spirit, who is invisible to both the physical and spiritual eye. God is pure spirit and therefore imperceptible to men. (2) probably the MOST disturbing is that you claim, There is in fact no place or need for Christ in my experience of God. It is by means of the incarnation that God has enabled ANY form of communication and relationship with man. For the Lord Christ is the incarnate God whose sole task was to reconcile sinners to God by means of His atonement. It is by the power of the Holy Spirit, Whom He sent that the blind are given eyes to see, a heart that yearns after God and a will to do that which He requires. Most importantly, it is Christ's Spirit Who creates faith in the soul which is that means by which anyone can reach out and trust in His person and work, which is recorded in Holy Scripture. No man can "see" nor can any man even desire to "see" God without Jesus Christ. Without knowing, having, being united to the Lord Christ, it is impossible that anyone can have anything to do with either the Father or the Spirit. (Jh 14:6; 10:7, 9; 17:2, 3; Matt 11:27; Acts 4:12; 1Jh 2:23; 5:11, 12; 2Jn 1:9) It is in Him that one "sees" the Father. (Jh 8:19;) Here what the Lord Christ said to Philip:

John 14:7-11 (ASV) "If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake."

I suspect that this next statement you made is very revealing as to where the problem lies:

You apparently have cast off all reason and sought some existential experience to be your reality of knowing God. However, this is a fatal error which has been the basis of nearly all Mysticism, some Pietism, etc. These teachings find their source in Greek "dualism", i.e., a bifurcation of the soul/spirit and the corporeal, where matter is seen as inferior to that which is spiritual. Man comes to know God through faith and not sight; whether that "sight" is physical or psychological (mental). And true faith is that which one lives before and for God. (Rom 1:17; 3:30; 5:1; 16:26; Eph 2:8-10; Phil 2:11, 12; Jam 2:26; et al) Thus, I must conclude that you are seeking something which is UNreal and a delusion which can only bring confusion, consternation and eventually eternal death.

My suggestion is that you start from the beginning and learn what true biblical Christianity really is. On The Highway website there are over 1100 articles, books, sermons and more which provide the full range of information concerning God, Christ, the Spirit, Christianity, salvation, etc. You might want to start by visiting the following section and begin reading some/all of that which is there.

Go here: In the Beginning

Oh, there is a particular book which I would highly recommend to you called, Knowing God, by J.I. Packer. I think you would find what Packer has to say MOST revealing and perhaps encouraging to you.

In His Grace,

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/puke.gif" alt="" /> That's right have him look for Christ as a plastic like wafer held in a silver box. Savin pay no attention to this do as Pilgrim and William have said look for Christ in the Scriptures believe them!


<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Which negates what you just told him previously. SAVIN look to the scriptures!!! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

You can't!:

John 14:6- "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

Matt. 11:27- "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

John 17:20-26
20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25 "O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;
26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

Mark 10:32-33
32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."

You also said:


Then the "god" you are expereincing is not the God of Scripture, for, as I mentioned earlier, Heb. 1:1-2 says:

1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Christ is our only hope. His blood is our only plea. His righteousness is our only covering in the sight of a just and holy God.

Rom. 3:21-26
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

1 Timothy 2:5- "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

Heb. 9:15- "For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance."

I join Pilgrim in HIGHLY recommending Dr. Packer's book, "Knowing God." I would suggest that you read it with a Bible-believing Christian so that the two of you can discuss each chapter as you read them. I did that with two ladies from my work and found it very fruitful.

I pray that you take Pilgrim's advice.

Ted

[quote][b][i]OrthodoxCatholic said:[/i][/b] But really, what exactly is it that you are looking for? Reassurance of your state with Him? Remember, faith is the assurance of things not seen. And faith is that which pleases Him most. [/quote] Thanks Brother Ed, the above is the most helpful response so far. Yes, I am looking for reassurance of my state with him, and also to solve the puzzle of why He is not present to or with me spiritually, while God the Father and the Holy Spirit both clearly are. Pilgrim, I'm sorry that my words disturbed you. It is not my intention to threaten anyone's beliefs or cause upset. I'm simply describing the situation as truthfully and straightforwardly as I can to try to find an answer for myself, and by extension, for all Christendom. I spent the better part of two days reading information posted on this site before making my own post here, and so I am quite familiar with what is available, and in fact the high quality of the information I found was the basis upon which I decided to bring my question before this forum. I said in my very first post that I do not believe I am a Christian, and told everyone why. Now I would like help if possible to find out how this can be so, and if appropriate, how it might be changed. It is not in anyone's interest for me to recite a litany here of everything I know about Jesus Christ. Please suffice it to say that I know in essence what all of the churches I've attended, my Sunday School lessons, Bible study, and Christian Discipleship School have taught me over the years, which I'm confident is in essence also what your Bible believing Christian teachers have taught you. While there may be minor points of interpretive difference, my experience is that Biblical Christian teaching is essentially the same the world over, even cross-denominationally, and so I trust that I essentially understand the same truths in basic that you and the rest of the Christian community understand. Please let me assure you that both God the Father and the Holy Spirit can be clearly seen, and both be clearly heard with spiritual vision and spiritual hearing. Because others may describe very real experiences which one has not yet personally had does not mean that those experiences are invalid or errors. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." To whom was the Lord referring, if not to us? I most certainly DO know God the Father and the Holy Spirit. And I [i]almost[/i] certainly DO NOT know Jesus, although I trust that he exists, and sometimes... occasionally... feel that He is present. This is the puzzle. And so I would like to return to my original question to this forum: Do some Christians have a personal experience of, or personal relationship with Jesus Christ, while others, equally Christian, do not? Shall we begin a poll? Thanks again to all, Savin

Savin,

I think you misunderstood my use of the word, "disturbing"! What I meant by what I wrote is that I found your description of what you believe to be true to be so woefully lacking compared to what is taught in the inspired Word of God. When I read your words, my heart was smitten with sadness. My own beliefs were hardly threatened. Thus let me assure you that you should not feel any apprehension in saying what you hold to be true.

Fair enough. I will affirm that you are decidedly not a Christian based upon what you have revealed of your core beliefs. They are antithetical to classic Christianity in many ways, not excluding your understanding of the nature of the Godhead and the relationship that exists between the three persons.

I regret that I have to inform you that this is simply not the case. Christianity, broadly speaking, is a term used by many who teach doctrines contrary to biblical truth. Thus the use of the name is more injurous than helpful, as is the case here.

but you cannot assure me that both the Father and Spirit can be "seen", as you have described your "seeing". I provided for you myriad Scriptural texts which totally discredit this view and show it to be antithetical to what the Lord Christ Himself taught. No offense, but I think that the incarnate God has more credibility and verity than you do. And thus I will believe Him rather than you.

Once again, I have to tell you in all earnest, that you do not know God the Father nor the Holy Spirit, for they can ONLY be known in and through the Lord Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of the Living God. Consider these words:

Colossians 1:14-20 (ASV) "in whom [Christ] we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it was the good pleasure [of the Father] that in him should all the fulness dwell; and through him to reconcile all things unto himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him, [I say], whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens."

Without knowing Christ you cannot know the Father nor the Spirit, Whom Christ sent to dwell in those who have come to Him by way or repentance and faith. Until such time as you do, by the mercy of God, you will remain a "child of wrath", at enmity with God and in need of justification of your sins. God does not communicate with sinners nor hear their prayers. (Jh 9:31; Prov 15:29; 28:9; Isa 1:15; Ps 34:15, 16)

One of the texts I previously submitted to you which clearly teaches that NO ONE can know the Father unless Christ Himself reveals Him was:

Matthew 11:25-27 (ASV) At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: yea, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight. All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal [him.]"

If you would like to submit a poll, by all means do.

BTW, I noticed that in your reply raw UBB Code was displayed. Most likely, in the dropdown menu for "Make post", you chose, without UBBCode/HMTL. To use UBB Code, you must choose either, using UBBCode or using HTML and UBBCode.

In His Grace,

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. 2 Tim 3:16-17, ESV.

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Rom 12:2, ESV.

Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. Psalm 119:105 ESV

Savin, you have been given very sound and logical answers. My only suggestion to you is to forget about any extra-biblical teachings for a while and get into the Word. The Scriptures are Gods Words given to us. They are infallible and inerrant and are able to make us wise and are edifying to our souls.

I wouldn't worry about getting too wrapped over certain versus, I would just try to read and re-read the bible until I started to get a clear idea of the general truth that are given to us through its pages. This is my suggestion to you.

If you want to experience God, read His Word. Don't rely on anyone else to tell you who God is, read His Word. Learn the Gospel and who Jesus Christ is through His Word.

This of course takes commitment. It takes discipline and diligence. This is why you find that not many people actually read the bible like they should. Or if they do read it, it is only through a daily devotional that shares only a couple of versus at a time, which is not bible reading.

So this is my suggestion to you and if you reply that you are well versed in Scripture and that you have attended many a bible study and discussion, then my next suggestion to you would be to find a church with a passionate preacher that teaches the Scriptures through expository preaching. This way you may be led to come to the Scriptures with a different predisposition.

Y.B.I.C,

Dave.

There is a critical distinction that we must make, Pilgrim. I have not stated to you any of my core beliefs. What I believe about Jesus and the Godhead is what the Bible tells us about them, including that Jesus is the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, God made manifest in the flesh as the promised redeemer, in whom all prophesies are fulfilled, and God's plan of redemption brought to fulfillment and completion for mankind. That is what I believe.

What I have stated to you above is my EXPERIENCE of the Godhead and Jesus. And it is the very disparity between these two which is the source of my consternation. My belief is not born out by my experience. I must therefore either invalidate my own experience and perception, leaving myself destitute of confidence in my own mind and its ability to know, or I must pursue this question further and try to come to a greater understanding of God's reality. It seems you would have me settle for the former.

You say rightly that without knowing Christ, there is no way (Biblically) that I can know God or the Holy Ghost. True. So the answer must be either that I DO know Christ and somehow don't recognize that fact, or that I do not know either God or the Holy Spirit. And where does that leave me? What shall I do? Whom shall I ask? Certainly not God, who I now distrust as potentially false. And certainly not Jesus, who it has been proved that I do not know, and who does not communicate with me in any case. Suggestions?

Please don't tell me to simply study the Bible for an additional 5 years or so and maybe something will happen. Nothing has happened for the last 24 years of my torment using this method. There is some missing key, which I feel I must press on until I find. If you cannot help me here, I will continue to search.

Savin,

With all honesty, sir, your posts are riddled with contradictions.

First you say you don't need Christ, now you claim He is the only way to the Father.

Please tell us why you think you know the Father and the Spirit? On what grounds do you base those conclusion? Do you believe the Bible is the inerrant, infallible, inspired, authoritative, and sufficient Word of God?

The disparity is between what you say you know intellectually and what you claim to experience because the biblical teaching prohibits anyone from actually experiencing what you say you do. So, either the Bible is teaching falsehood or your experience, though real to you, is not of God. I'll let you decide. You say your "belief" is not born out of experience, yet on the one hand you profess to know the OBJECTIVE truth concerning the Godhead, the incarnation, Christ as the embodiment of true truth, etc., yet on the other hand you stated that you have no need of Christ, etc. How do YOU reconcile these two statements? If Christ is truly Who He says He is, then upon what basis do you find no need of Him and even more, why would you choose to hold on to your experience, which is totally antithetical to what Jesus taught and even seek for the same type of experience with Him, which again He clearly says you will not and cannot have? No wonder you have consternation.

1) Personally, I find to basis upon which to believe that you do know Christ, going on what you have written in these few posts. 2) I believe you have spoken truth here, that you do not know either God or the Holy Spirit.

You are left with what you began with.... God's inspired, inerrant, infallible Word which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. Finding God "potentially false" is indicative of unbelief. No one has ever found consolation in God without trusting in His word; His promise that all who come to Him, believing in Christ and repenting of their sins. Further, no one has ever come to Christ unless they have a need of Him. Do you have a genuine sense of your guiltiness before God? Do you possess a genuine need and deep desire to be forgiven for your sins and to be reconciled to God, Who at this moment is at enmity with you? Do you despise your very life and thirst for righteousness which is only found in Christ and the transforming power of the Holy Spirit Who the Lord Christ promised will dwell within all who believe in Him? The Lord Jesus gives this infallible promise:

Matthew 11:28-30 (ASV) "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

You say you have no conviction of sin? You lament that you cannot conjure up faith to believe? You fail in all your attempts to find consolation in your life's quest? Then what you need to do is to get on your knees and pray without ceasing that God will grant you a new heart, confess that you are wits end and that you have sought answers in all the wrong places, and that you are helpless in and of yourself to find Him, believing that He will grant your request. For it is the Father's will to do so. (Jh 6:37, 40, 45) You must come to God in Christ with the faith of a little child and cry out, "I believe! help thou mine unbelief!". This you must do until such time as you know that a change has taken over you and you can say with some measure of confidence, God is mine and I am God's for Christ's sake. What more can you do? Well, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. (Rom 10:17) Thus, you should by all means seek out a church where the doctrines of grace are being preached and taught faithfully. You will say, well where is such a church? I answer, submit your request in our "Church Locator" forum, and include your location. Most have found that there are some good choices to choose from in the replies that result.

If you haven't done so already, I would also commend to you these gems of wisdom to read and ponder:

Thoughts on Unbelief by Ebenezer Erskine

The Plan of God by J.I. Packer

May God grant you His infinite mercy and draw you to Himself so that you may experience that true joy, peace and satisfaction that is only found in Christ.

In His Grace,

I am horrified by the thought of this, Savin.

Remember the prophet Isaiah who said, "Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, 'What are you making?' or 'Your work has no handles'?"

If you know anything about God, you should be down on your knees begging for Him to develop a relationship with you, NOT you blithering on about His lack of a "personal contact" with you.

Who do you think you are, man?!?

As God answered Job (in the 38th chapter of the book of Job), "1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:
2"Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
3Dress for action[a] like a man;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.
4"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5Who determined its measurements--surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8"Or who shut in the sea with doors
when it burst out from the womb,
9when I made clouds its garment
and thick darkness its swaddling band,
10and prescribed limits for it
and set bars and doors,
11and said, 'Thus far shall you come, and no farther,
and here shall your proud waves be stayed'?
12"Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
and caused the dawn to know its place,
13that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth,
and the wicked be shaken out of it?
14It is changed like clay under the seal,
and its features stand out like a garment.
15From the wicked their light is withheld,
and their uplifted arm is broken.
16"Have you entered into the springs of the sea,
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth?
Declare, if you know all this.
19"Where is the way to the dwelling of light,
and where is the place of darkness,
20that you may take it to its territory
and that you may discern the paths to its home?
21You know, for you were born then,
and the number of your days is great!
22"Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
for the day of battle and war?
24What is the way to the place where the light is distributed,
or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?
25"Who has cleft a channel for the torrents of rain
and a way for the thunderbolt,
26to bring rain on a land where no man is,
on the desert in which there is no man,
27to satisfy the waste and desolate land,
and to make the ground sprout with grass?
28"Has the rain a father,
or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29From whose womb did the ice come forth,
and who has given birth to the frost of heaven?
30The waters become hard like stone,
and the face of the deep is frozen.
31"Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades
or loose the cords of Orion?
32Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season,
or can you guide the Bear with its children?
33Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you establish their rule on the earth?
34"Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
that a flood of waters may cover you?
35Can you send forth lightnings, that they may go
and say to you, 'Here we are'?
36Who has put wisdom in the inward parts[c]
or given understanding to the mind?[d]
37Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can tilt the waterskins of the heavens,
38when the dust runs into a mass
and the clods stick fast together?
39"Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in their thicket?
41Who provides for the raven its prey,
when its young ones cry to God for help,
and wander about for lack of food?"

My suggestion, Savin? Get on your knees, right now, and PLEAD with the Lord of Lords to forgive you for those thoughts and to bring you close to Himself.

With your best interests at heart,
Ted

Well sir, if you have indeed been studying the bible for as long you say you have, and the Scriptures havn't been made plane to you, then I'm afraid you are deadly right, there is indeed nothing we can do for you. So you have been told what to do, kneel down and pray as you are commanded by the Lord our God, repent and follow Him. Do not ask why, do not pass go, do not collect $200.00. Just simply put your faith in the one that died for you..... FOR YOU! ON THE CROSS, FOR YOUR SINS and STOP this nonsense...... or deny Him, for you can only serve one master.

I believe that the problem you are having is that you are relying on your "feelings" for your spirituality. You are relying on an experiantial faith. This my friend is a very dangerous path. I started out as a free-willed, experiential Christian, racing along up and down in states of emotional distraught. One minute I was High on the mountain top the next minute as low as low can be. I thought about resorting to mistisism, joining a monistary, being caught up in this modern, extistential, post modern, pop culture, experiential, relitive, subjective way at Christianity. Let me tell you, it didn't work! That was ME trying to EARN MY salvation. But the Master has laid it out simply for us my friend. Justification through Faith Alone. Believe in Him who is the Alpha and Omega, believe in Christ and take refuge in His Word.

You say you have read the scriptures for 24 years? I'm sorry but, it does not sound to me like the Holy Spirit then has allowed you to understand their clear message of salvation, repentance and sanctification.

You say you want to SEE Jesus? So do I my friend, so do I, but there is only one way reveiled to us that we may do so. That is either by our death or His second comming and I pray everyday that when that time comes, that the Lord grant me and my family eternal peace in the Presence of His Glory.

SOLI DEO GLORIA!

May His Peace and Grace be with you,

Dave.

You are looking for Jesus where He can not be found in the glory of your own experience. You can know Christ only in His humiliation, shame, and sufferings as He bears your sins on the cross.

There is no missing key despite what your experience tells you. Scripture is clear. I suspect you will continue to look for some imaginary key that will confirm your interpretation of your experiences. Let me ask, what help do you look for?


God bless,

william

Well, thank you all. Those answers are certainly comprehensive... and sound. I sense it may be correct that I am looking for something amiss, something that simply cannot be found - for God's own reasons.

I realize this may sound stupidly obvious to some, but believe it or not, it has just occurred to me (with your help). I DO believe in Jesus, as the Son of God, the redeemer, whom God raised from the dead, and the only Name given under heaven by which we must be saved. And I also have been baptised in the name of The Father, and of The Son, and of The Holy Spirit. This is all the Holy Scriptures say is required to be saved. So perhaps the reason that I feel no need of Christ when in God's presence is simply because I have successfully attained the goal... I just expected Jesus to be there, to meet Him, and have in fact been demanding that He be there. This may simply be a wrong assumption on my part, and something which God is, for his own reasons, unwilling to grant. Be assured however, that I'm not investing anything in this answer just yet, although at the moment it has the "ring" of truth.

Please let me contemplate these things for awhile, and take it all to prayer.

Thank you all again,

Savin

Savin,you said this
I just expected Jesus to be there, to meet Him, and have in fact been demanding that He be there.

I had ask before about your control issues,and now I have an answer, thankyou.

neicey

Thanks Niecey,

I don't understand "control issues", which is probably the give-away that I have them. I'll do some research into the topic.

Savin

Savin

Like Pilgrim, I highly recommend you read JI Packer's book 'Knowing God'. But I would add that you get the 'Knowing God Journal' that is also available.
The book has a lot of meat and some people choke on it and put it aside. But, if you persevere through it being sure to chew each morsel sufficiently, I am quite certain you will come away from it a changed person.

Tom

Hello again everybody,

I'm still pondering the things we've discussed so far, and based on the numerous recommendations I've been given here, I've ordered Mr. Packer's book online. It should arrive within a few days.

Reading over all of the posts to date, I'm profoundly grateful for the support and good council I've been given. Thank you all again. I also see that there are a couple of points I should clarify in the meantime for everyone's benefit.

First, at least two people apparently misunderstood what I was saying about "distrusting God" because I failed to edit my post well. The sentences in question should have read: "Whom shall I ask? Certainly not God, who I now must distrust as potentially false." However I omitted the word "must" in my post. What I was saying was not that I presently distrust God - very much the contrary. I meant simply that if I accept the proposition that the God that I know personally is not truly the God of the Bible, then I can no longer ask my God for help, but must instead distrust Him. Aside from the surface ridiculousness of this idea (how can a person raised in the mainstream Christian church, who trusts Biblical God and only Biblical God from childhood, and who prays to God the Father of Jesus Christ, possibly be not knowing the correct God??) I can also report to you honestly that I have very painfully tested this proposition in the past.

In 1985, thinking that I must have somewhere made a wrong turn because of my inability to have any contact with Jesus, despite my easy ability to commune with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, I confided the whole matter to my teachers at the Christian Discipleship school I was attending at the time. After hearing the whole story, the very sincere (but I think misguided) teachers at the school essentially declared my whole Christian experience invalid, and succeeded in convincing me that I must not really be saved or in contact with God or the Holy Spirit at all, but that I instead must be profoundly deceived, or worse. Based on their recommendations, I then actually rejected the ones I knew (and loved and trusted deeply) as God the Father and the Holy Spirit, and accepted that I was indeed deceived, and that there must instead be something and someone else.

The short story is that the result of that decision was a sudden and torturous spiritual death truly beyond all description, and from which I have not yet fully recovered. Allow me to skip the gory details, and just say that today, nearly twenty years later, I have still never succeeded in finding any true god except God the Father of the Bible, whom I knew before. And neither is there any other holy spirit than THE Holy Spirit of the Bible, whom I knew before. Real God is simply the ONLY God - there is only HIM to find! And I had sinned greatly by rejecting Him. So I have now, after nearly twenty years, finally come back to openly acknowledging Real God as my God, and Real God is God the Father of the Bible, the One and only. So you see, I'm perhaps a little sensitive about the suggestion that I do not really know God.

I would like to clarify certain other points as well, about "seeing God", etc., but so that this exposition does not become too long, I'll wait awhile and take it up again later. Perhaps the book will arrive in the meantime.

Blessings to all,

Savin

Savin. We are saved by grace.When a person is saved they must then live theie life by faith. Romans 1 :17 the just shall live by faith. May I say this no matter what religion you believe you must have some kind of faith. Though the only true religion is Christianity. I must say one more thing with you Savin, the fact that you know about Biblical truth you are burning heaping hot coals on your head. REPENT I plead with you.