The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Do Christians have personal contact with Jesus?

Hello and cordial greetings to all, This is a question which has perturbed and puzzled me greatly since childhood: Do some Christians have personal spiritual contact with Jesus, and others not? Although I have tried and tried, and tried more, I cannot personally claim to be a Christian. While I thoroughly believe the Bible account, and authentically revere Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the only divinely appointed savior of mankind, my personal spiritual experience throughout life has consistently been that I am unable to spiritually "locate" or contact any such person, despite the fact that both God the Father and the Holy Spirit are very close and readily accessible to me in prayer or spiritual meditation. In my personal experience, there is no one mediating between myself and God the Father, and no mediator necessary. In fact, attempting to introduce a mediator by "conjuring" an imaginary Jesus based on the Bible account rather [i]separates[/i] me from my natural fellowship with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, and creates terrific internal turmoil and confusion. Some Christians I have known claim to have an ongoing, close personal relationship with Jesus Christ through prayer, saying that He is very near to them, and present and accessible always. Other Christians I have spoken with, even some church pastors having extensive Bible knowledge and credentials, claim no such relationship, but simply "believe". Although I personally [i]believe[/i], this has so far done me no practical good in either spiritual or worldly life, but has rather been the root of much suffering and distress over this question of Jesus' spiritual identity. The heart of the matter is that I find I am unable to trust a spiritual savior who I am unable to know, and who separates me from God. Therefore even believing, I feel that I cannot possibly be a Christian, since the introduction of Jesus is antithetical to my natural spiritual communion with God the Father and the Holy Spirit. Any and all light that anyone can shed on this conundrum would be much appreciated. Please however refrain from accusing me of heresy or possession. This is a sincere inquiry. Blessings to all, Savin

Hi, sorry I cannot help you with this,but there are a few people on this board who can.I have a question, why are you so scared ? or maybe you don't know why and that is the blocker between you and trust.
I think more questions need to be ask before somebody here can help you, like are you a J.W.?

Do you have control issues ? Who had the most influence in your life ?

Well that's my thought for today LOL
neicey <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hugs.gif" alt="" />

Savin,

Honestly, you sound confused (and I wonder if you truly are sincere in your question, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt). I will try to respond, but that may mean starting from square one as to what true saving faith is.

In God's own words, faith is "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

1 Peter 1:8-9 says, speaking to Christians, "and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls."

And this in no way is a blind faith, for "since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20).

The truth of Christianity is based upon who God is, and upon what Christ has done on behalf of His people (Eph. 1:3-14):

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight
9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

You said, "In fact, attempting to introduce a mediator by 'conjuring' an imaginary Jesus based on the Bible account rather separates me from my natural fellowship with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, and creates terrific internal turmoil and confusion."

This sounds skeptical, and it makes me wonder if this is a genuine question or not. You said that you believed the Bible, so you must know that Christ is very real and is even at this moment at the right hand of God, interceding for His people and reigning over His own. As Heb. 7:25 says, "Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."

Also, why do you think that you are unable to "trust a spiritual savior who I am unable to know, and who separates me from God." It does sound like you are confused over the identity of Jesus. Do you not know that this Jesus is just as much God as are the Father and the Holy Spirit? Consider these verses:

Hebrews 1:1-4
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

John 1:1-4, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Col. 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Rev. 1:4-8
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--
6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Lest there still be any doubt as to Who is speaking:

Rev. 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

It was Christ that Isaiah saw high and lifted up:

John 12:34-41
34 The crowd then answered Him, "We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this Son of Man?"
35 So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes.
36 "While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light " These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them.
37 But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him.
38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?"
39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
40 "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."
41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.

Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness, From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Add to that the "I AM" statements of Jesus, and the fact that Jesus forgave sins.

Not just those who physically saw Jesus had fellowship with Him. Christians today do as well:

1 John 1:1-3
1 "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--
2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Matthew 28:19-20
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

John 14:16-21
16 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
19 "After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.
20 "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

Col. 1:25-27
25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,
26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Interesting post.

Suppose.....just suppose.....that instead of looking for Jesus in a spiritual manner, you were to look for and find Him in the way that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches say He is present in the world....on the altar of a Catholic or Orthodox Church in the form of the Eucharist.

Just a thought.

But really, what exactly is it that you are looking for? Reassurance of your state with Him? Remember, faith is the assurance of things not seen.

And faith is that which pleases Him most.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

Thanks to both of you who have responded. I tried to open this topic by describing my situation as succinctly as possible, while being aware that some further clarifications would be needed. Here is some additional background: I was raised Episcopalian as a boy, went away from the church for many years beginning at about age ten, then returned later as an adult with my wife's family to attend the Christian and Missionary Alliance church, a Bible and Trinity believing independent denomination. In the process of attempting to address the question I've described, I have attended many other churches also, including Presbyterian, Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist, Calvary Chapel, several other independents, and yes, even the Jehovah's Witnesses. I then explored eastern religion, esotericism, mysticism (both Christian and other sources) and gnosticism. So far mysticism has come closest to a solution, yet the answer remains incomplete and unsatisfactory. To cast the problem again in other terms, let me say that try as I may, and study as I might, I still do not know who Jesus Christ is. I know all [i]about[/i] Him, but I do not [i]know[/i] Him. SemperReformanda quoted from the Book of John 14: 19 "After a little while the world will no longer see Me, [i]but you will see Me[/i]; because I live, you will live also. 20 "In that day [i]you will know that I am in My Father[/i], and you in Me, and I in you. (Italics mine) But I do [i]not[/i] see Christ. I see [u]only[/u] God the Father and the Holy Spirit. In my direct personal experience, there is no Son in the Father. (Father, please forgive me if this explanation is imperfect or impure.) There is in fact no place or need for Christ in my experience of God. Christ is [i]invisible[/i] to me, and attempting to find Him or force Him into my experience of God causes only pain, and spoils the perfect and natural interaction between God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and myself. So while the reality of Christ makes perfect Biblical, rational and spiritual sense, and I believe in it, that reality has nevertheless never been part of my experience of God to date, [u][i]and I don't know why.[/i][/u] Why am I so frightened? (Very perceptive of you, neicey.) The answer is imbedded in the above. How can I possibly be truly right with God, [i]even knowing Him directly[/i], while not knowing who Jesus is? I have now come to the point of doubting literally everything. Savin

Welcome to the boards Savin.


Solution to what?


Experience has its place but can be unreliable. Gods word says Jesus IS God.


Your findings according to your experience. I am beginning to see a trend here.


Yup. It's all according to your experience as interpreted by you. Interesting epistemology. Gods word dictates truth.


God bless,

william

I suspect that you do NOT know "about Jesus", despite you believing that you do. From what you have shared so far, it seems evident that you know little about who the person of the Lord Jesus Christ is. Doubtless, you know something about Jesus, but what that is exactly is what I question. My questioning is not one to be taken as condemnatory but inquisitorial, i.e., I would like to know what it is you think you know "about" Him. So, it would be extremely helpful if you could at least summarize your understanding of the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I find this more than disturbing that you would claim that, (1) you see only God the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures explicitly say that you cannot "see" God the Father in any manner, shape or form; no man has except the Son. (Jh 1:18; 6:46; cf. Matt 11:27; 1Tim 6:16; 1Jh 4:12, 20). The same is likewise true of the Holy Spirit, who is invisible to both the physical and spiritual eye. God is pure spirit and therefore imperceptible to men. (2) probably the MOST disturbing is that you claim, There is in fact no place or need for Christ in my experience of God. It is by means of the incarnation that God has enabled ANY form of communication and relationship with man. For the Lord Christ is the incarnate God whose sole task was to reconcile sinners to God by means of His atonement. It is by the power of the Holy Spirit, Whom He sent that the blind are given eyes to see, a heart that yearns after God and a will to do that which He requires. Most importantly, it is Christ's Spirit Who creates faith in the soul which is that means by which anyone can reach out and trust in His person and work, which is recorded in Holy Scripture. No man can "see" nor can any man even desire to "see" God without Jesus Christ. Without knowing, having, being united to the Lord Christ, it is impossible that anyone can have anything to do with either the Father or the Spirit. (Jh 14:6; 10:7, 9; 17:2, 3; Matt 11:27; Acts 4:12; 1Jh 2:23; 5:11, 12; 2Jn 1:9) It is in Him that one "sees" the Father. (Jh 8:19;) Here what the Lord Christ said to Philip:

John 14:7-11 (ASV) "If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake."

I suspect that this next statement you made is very revealing as to where the problem lies:

You apparently have cast off all reason and sought some existential experience to be your reality of knowing God. However, this is a fatal error which has been the basis of nearly all Mysticism, some Pietism, etc. These teachings find their source in Greek "dualism", i.e., a bifurcation of the soul/spirit and the corporeal, where matter is seen as inferior to that which is spiritual. Man comes to know God through faith and not sight; whether that "sight" is physical or psychological (mental). And true faith is that which one lives before and for God. (Rom 1:17; 3:30; 5:1; 16:26; Eph 2:8-10; Phil 2:11, 12; Jam 2:26; et al) Thus, I must conclude that you are seeking something which is UNreal and a delusion which can only bring confusion, consternation and eventually eternal death.

My suggestion is that you start from the beginning and learn what true biblical Christianity really is. On The Highway website there are over 1100 articles, books, sermons and more which provide the full range of information concerning God, Christ, the Spirit, Christianity, salvation, etc. You might want to start by visiting the following section and begin reading some/all of that which is there.

Go here: In the Beginning

Oh, there is a particular book which I would highly recommend to you called, Knowing God, by J.I. Packer. I think you would find what Packer has to say MOST revealing and perhaps encouraging to you.

In His Grace,

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/puke.gif" alt="" /> That's right have him look for Christ as a plastic like wafer held in a silver box. Savin pay no attention to this do as Pilgrim and William have said look for Christ in the Scriptures believe them!


<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Which negates what you just told him previously. SAVIN look to the scriptures!!! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

You can't!:

John 14:6- "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

Matt. 11:27- "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

John 17:20-26
20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25 "O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;
26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

Mark 10:32-33
32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."

You also said:


Then the "god" you are expereincing is not the God of Scripture, for, as I mentioned earlier, Heb. 1:1-2 says:

1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Christ is our only hope. His blood is our only plea. His righteousness is our only covering in the sight of a just and holy God.

Rom. 3:21-26
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

1 Timothy 2:5- "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

Heb. 9:15- "For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance."

I join Pilgrim in HIGHLY recommending Dr. Packer's book, "Knowing God." I would suggest that you read it with a Bible-believing Christian so that the two of you can discuss each chapter as you read them. I did that with two ladies from my work and found it very fruitful.

I pray that you take Pilgrim's advice.

Ted

[quote][b][i]OrthodoxCatholic said:[/i][/b] But really, what exactly is it that you are looking for? Reassurance of your state with Him? Remember, faith is the assurance of things not seen. And faith is that which pleases Him most. [/quote] Thanks Brother Ed, the above is the most helpful response so far. Yes, I am looking for reassurance of my state with him, and also to solve the puzzle of why He is not present to or with me spiritually, while God the Father and the Holy Spirit both clearly are. Pilgrim, I'm sorry that my words disturbed you. It is not my intention to threaten anyone's beliefs or cause upset. I'm simply describing the situation as truthfully and straightforwardly as I can to try to find an answer for myself, and by extension, for all Christendom. I spent the better part of two days reading information posted on this site before making my own post here, and so I am quite familiar with what is available, and in fact the high quality of the information I found was the basis upon which I decided to bring my question before this forum. I said in my very first post that I do not believe I am a Christian, and told everyone why. Now I would like help if possible to find out how this can be so, and if appropriate, how it might be changed. It is not in anyone's interest for me to recite a litany here of everything I know about Jesus Christ. Please suffice it to say that I know in essence what all of the churches I've attended, my Sunday School lessons, Bible study, and Christian Discipleship School have taught me over the years, which I'm confident is in essence also what your Bible believing Christian teachers have taught you. While there may be minor points of interpretive difference, my experience is that Biblical Christian teaching is essentially the same the world over, even cross-denominationally, and so I trust that I essentially understand the same truths in basic that you and the rest of the Christian community understand. Please let me assure you that both God the Father and the Holy Spirit can be clearly seen, and both be clearly heard with spiritual vision and spiritual hearing. Because others may describe very real experiences which one has not yet personally had does not mean that those experiences are invalid or errors. "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." To whom was the Lord referring, if not to us? I most certainly DO know God the Father and the Holy Spirit. And I [i]almost[/i] certainly DO NOT know Jesus, although I trust that he exists, and sometimes... occasionally... feel that He is present. This is the puzzle. And so I would like to return to my original question to this forum: Do some Christians have a personal experience of, or personal relationship with Jesus Christ, while others, equally Christian, do not? Shall we begin a poll? Thanks again to all, Savin

Savin,

I think you misunderstood my use of the word, "disturbing"! What I meant by what I wrote is that I found your description of what you believe to be true to be so woefully lacking compared to what is taught in the inspired Word of God. When I read your words, my heart was smitten with sadness. My own beliefs were hardly threatened. Thus let me assure you that you should not feel any apprehension in saying what you hold to be true.

Fair enough. I will affirm that you are decidedly not a Christian based upon what you have revealed of your core beliefs. They are antithetical to classic Christianity in many ways, not excluding your understanding of the nature of the Godhead and the relationship that exists between the three persons.

I regret that I have to inform you that this is simply not the case. Christianity, broadly speaking, is a term used by many who teach doctrines contrary to biblical truth. Thus the use of the name is more injurous than helpful, as is the case here.

but you cannot assure me that both the Father and Spirit can be "seen", as you have described your "seeing". I provided for you myriad Scriptural texts which totally discredit this view and show it to be antithetical to what the Lord Christ Himself taught. No offense, but I think that the incarnate God has more credibility and verity than you do. And thus I will believe Him rather than you.

Once again, I have to tell you in all earnest, that you do not know God the Father nor the Holy Spirit, for they can ONLY be known in and through the Lord Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of the Living God. Consider these words:

Colossians 1:14-20 (ASV) "in whom [Christ] we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it was the good pleasure [of the Father] that in him should all the fulness dwell; and through him to reconcile all things unto himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him, [I say], whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens."

Without knowing Christ you cannot know the Father nor the Spirit, Whom Christ sent to dwell in those who have come to Him by way or repentance and faith. Until such time as you do, by the mercy of God, you will remain a "child of wrath", at enmity with God and in need of justification of your sins. God does not communicate with sinners nor hear their prayers. (Jh 9:31; Prov 15:29; 28:9; Isa 1:15; Ps 34:15, 16)

One of the texts I previously submitted to you which clearly teaches that NO ONE can know the Father unless Christ Himself reveals Him was:

Matthew 11:25-27 (ASV) At that season Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes: yea, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in thy sight. All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal [him.]"

If you would like to submit a poll, by all means do.

BTW, I noticed that in your reply raw UBB Code was displayed. Most likely, in the dropdown menu for "Make post", you chose, without UBBCode/HMTL. To use UBB Code, you must choose either, using UBBCode or using HTML and UBBCode.

In His Grace,

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. 2 Tim 3:16-17, ESV.

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Rom 12:2, ESV.

Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. Psalm 119:105 ESV

Savin, you have been given very sound and logical answers. My only suggestion to you is to forget about any extra-biblical teachings for a while and get into the Word. The Scriptures are Gods Words given to us. They are infallible and inerrant and are able to make us wise and are edifying to our souls.

I wouldn't worry about getting too wrapped over certain versus, I would just try to read and re-read the bible until I started to get a clear idea of the general truth that are given to us through its pages. This is my suggestion to you.

If you want to experience God, read His Word. Don't rely on anyone else to tell you who God is, read His Word. Learn the Gospel and who Jesus Christ is through His Word.

This of course takes commitment. It takes discipline and diligence. This is why you find that not many people actually read the bible like they should. Or if they do read it, it is only through a daily devotional that shares only a couple of versus at a time, which is not bible reading.

So this is my suggestion to you and if you reply that you are well versed in Scripture and that you have attended many a bible study and discussion, then my next suggestion to you would be to find a church with a passionate preacher that teaches the Scriptures through expository preaching. This way you may be led to come to the Scriptures with a different predisposition.

Y.B.I.C,

Dave.

There is a critical distinction that we must make, Pilgrim. I have not stated to you any of my core beliefs. What I believe about Jesus and the Godhead is what the Bible tells us about them, including that Jesus is the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, God made manifest in the flesh as the promised redeemer, in whom all prophesies are fulfilled, and God's plan of redemption brought to fulfillment and completion for mankind. That is what I believe.

What I have stated to you above is my EXPERIENCE of the Godhead and Jesus. And it is the very disparity between these two which is the source of my consternation. My belief is not born out by my experience. I must therefore either invalidate my own experience and perception, leaving myself destitute of confidence in my own mind and its ability to know, or I must pursue this question further and try to come to a greater understanding of God's reality. It seems you would have me settle for the former.

You say rightly that without knowing Christ, there is no way (Biblically) that I can know God or the Holy Ghost. True. So the answer must be either that I DO know Christ and somehow don't recognize that fact, or that I do not know either God or the Holy Spirit. And where does that leave me? What shall I do? Whom shall I ask? Certainly not God, who I now distrust as potentially false. And certainly not Jesus, who it has been proved that I do not know, and who does not communicate with me in any case. Suggestions?

Please don't tell me to simply study the Bible for an additional 5 years or so and maybe something will happen. Nothing has happened for the last 24 years of my torment using this method. There is some missing key, which I feel I must press on until I find. If you cannot help me here, I will continue to search.

Savin,

With all honesty, sir, your posts are riddled with contradictions.

First you say you don't need Christ, now you claim He is the only way to the Father.

Please tell us why you think you know the Father and the Spirit? On what grounds do you base those conclusion? Do you believe the Bible is the inerrant, infallible, inspired, authoritative, and sufficient Word of God?