Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Christianity. When Christians speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being. The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins.
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Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:… (KJV)
Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel. This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ.
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Eph 2:1-7 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (KJV)
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Joh 1:6-11 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. (KJV)
Joh 1:6-14 - John the Baptist came to bear witness concerning Jesus. Nothing more fully shows the darkness of men's minds, than that when the Light had appeared, there needed a witness to call attention to it. Christ was the true Light; that great Light which deserves to be called so. By his Spirit and grace he enlightens all that are enlightened to salvation; and those that are not enlightened by him, perish in darkness. Christ was in the world when he took our nature upon him, and dwelt among us. Many say that they are Christ's own, yet do not receive him, because they will not part with their sins, nor have him to reign over them. All the children of God are born again. This new birth is through the word of God as the means, and by the Spirit of God as the Author. By his Divine presence Christ always was in the world. But now that the fullness of time was come, he was, after another manner, God manifested in the flesh. (Matthew Henry)
Why did they reject him? Because they did not know him. Sin is a two edged sword; It both renders the flesh dead AS WELL AS the spirit. It creates death in all who commit it, which is all of mankind.
We read in John Calvin's Institutes,
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“The recesses in which concupiscence lies hid are so deep and tortuous that they easily elude our view; and hence the Apostle had good reason for saying, "I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." For, if it be not brought forth from its lurking places, it miserably destroys in secret before its fatal sting is discerned. Thus the Law is a kind of mirror. As in a mirror we discover any stains upon our face, so in the Law we behold, first, our impotence; then, in consequence of it, our iniquity; and, finally, the curse, as the consequence of both.” (II.vii.5-7a).
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Gen 3:8-13 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. (KJV)
What is fallen man's solution to the approach of the Judge? He retains his pride and self-reliance and runs from God. He looks away from judgment and instead would use his fig leaf religion to try to deny the fact of judgment. The irony here is that man's self-salvation is his self-damnation. What he does to save himself - to run from God, is the essence of the very wrath he is trying to avoid! Hell is "away from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thes. 1:9). To save himself, he separates from God, but separation from God is the essence of death, the substance of hell. He shows that he actually wants and deserves death! He complains about his circumstances and his emotional discomfort. His solution? Remove God. Suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Exclude God from his thoughts. Discard His law. Ignore sin. He is not a pitiable victim, but a criminal who hates God!
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Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." (New American Standard Bible)
Joh 6:44 - Except the Father draw him (ean mh elkush auton). Negative condition of third class with ean mh and first aorist active subjunctive of elkuw, older form elkw, to drag like a net (Joh_21:6), or sword (Joh_18:10), or men (Act_16:19), to draw by moral power (Joh_12:32), as in Jer_31:3. Surw, the other word to drag (Act_8:3; Act_14:19) is not used of Christ's drawing power. The same point is repeated in verse Joh_6:65. The approach of the soul to God is initiated by God, the other side of verse Joh_6:37. See Rom_8:7 for the same doctrine and use of oude dunatai like oudeiv dunatai here. (Robertson’s Word Pictures)
A man is in a box. The box is completely enclosed. The box has no light in it. The box is sound proof. The box has no windows or doors. This man lives in “his” box. The man lives in total darkness. Nothing from the outside gets in and nothing inside gets out. Now in this box this man makes all his own decisions based on the knowledge of the things in “his” box, or from his “nature”.
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1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (KJV)
The man above is one who is dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1). The man is blind to the things in the outside world (2 Cor 4:4). Unredeemed man loves darkness rather than light (John 1:4-9) for this is all he really knows, for this is all that is in his box. Though light appears all around his sin nature he will not comprehend it (John 1:5). As Christ demonstrated by His many healing miracles, man, because of his sin nature, is blind, deaf, crippled, speechless, diseased, and is even dead. Until God alone heals this inability of the soul of man he will remain in this condition. Man needs the Great Physician. God cannot in this be judged that He is unjust because He does not save them, for the man is free and is making his own decisions in his own box and he chooses not Christ: “He came unto his own, and his own received him not” (John 1:11). The natural man is in “his” box. Nothing comes in or goes out. His own sin has enclosed him. He is dead to all God has and makes his decision freely, based upon his own darkness, but will never freely choose Christ, for Christ is not in his box (Rom 3:11).
We believe that all are sinners (Romans 3:23) and unable by human performance to earn, deserve, or merit salvation (Titus 3:5). We believe that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and that apart from God's grace, no one can be saved (Ephesians 2:8-9). We believe that none are righteous, or capable of doing good (Romans 3:10-12), and that apart from the conviction and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, none can be saved (John 1:12-13; 16:8-11; I Peter 1:23-25). Mankind is clearly fallen and lost in sin.
Good teaching Brother. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Dave.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16
Job 40:6-14 Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him? Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee. (KJV)
Who can save himself? Man is totally depraved and cannot.
The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ.
Precisely, that is what is called the Incarnation and the redemptive work of Christ for mankind.
Eph 2: 1-7 has to be taken in account with the other texts regarding redemption. Paul is speaking to believers here, but they were part of the unredeemed before Christ came. He came for the express purpose to save mankind from death and sin. He freed mankind to make that choice to live IN Christ.
John 1:6-11 speaks eloquently of the redemptive work of Christ for all men. All men who came into this world. Do you know of any who didn't?
Matthew Henry is just giving his personal opinion here because it speaks against what the Bible actually teaches and what the quotes you used just above his commentary. They are contradictions.
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By his Spirit and grace he enlightens all that are enlightened to salvation; and those that are not enlightened by him, perish in darkness
He enlightens every man that comes into this world. It is our choice that separates us from light and darkness. It would be kind of rediculous to think that Christ came to save the world and failed. That He would purposely fail because in that He came to redeem sinners, but actually only enlightened some.
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Why did they reject him? Because they did not know him. Sin is a two edged sword; It both renders the flesh dead AS WELL AS the spirit. It creates death in all who commit it, which is all of mankind.
It no longer renders flesh dead. Flesh was dead, but Christ overcame death so that His highest created being will not perish. All men will be immortal. But, yes, sin separates us from God, even believers. That is why we need and seek forgiveness.
Your quote of John Calvin is not even addressing the status of mankind after Christ came. He is addressing the plight of mankind before Christ and His redemptive work.
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What is fallen man's solution to the approach of the Judge? He retains his pride and self-reliance and runs from God. He looks away from judgment and instead would use his fig leaf religion to try to deny the fact of judgment. The irony here is that man's self-salvation is his self-damnation. What he does to save himself - to run from God, is the essence of the very wrath he is trying to avoid! Hell is "away from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thes. 1:9). To save himself, he separates from God, but separation from God is the essence of death, the substance of hell. He shows that he actually wants and deserves death! He complains about his circumstances and his emotional discomfort. His solution? Remove God. Suppress the truth in unrighteousness. Exclude God from his thoughts. Discard His law. Ignore sin. He is not a pitiable victim, but a criminal who hates God!
Again, this is right after the fall. What do you expect. This is the reason Christ came. That is, to correct the fall. To enable mankind to again have communion with Him. This is not his status after His redemptive work.
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Now in this box this man makes all his own decisions based on the knowledge of the things in “his” box, or from his “nature”.
Again, that is man's condition before Christ came. You use the word nature. Christ redeemed man's nature. He did that through the Incarnation of Christ. That is the specific purpose of the Incarnation. Since all men are human beings they are all effected by Christ's work. Once that is completed, God is now able to effect His call upon all men. His spirit is poured out upon all flesh, not some or only a few. ALL FLESH.
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We believe that all are sinners (Romans 3:23) and unable by human performance to earn, deserve, or merit salvation (Titus 3:5). We believe that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and that apart from God's grace, no one can be saved (Ephesians 2:8-9). We believe that none are righteous, or capable of doing good (Romans 3:10-12), and that apart from the conviction and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, none can be saved (John 1:12-13; 16:8-11; I Peter 1:23-25). Mankind is clearly fallen and lost in sin.
No problem here, except that this does not support total depravity either. The wages of sin is still death. If we believe not, we are condemned already. Spiritual, eternal death. No one denies that the whole is of Grace. But Christ redeemed His creation so that man could be in Union with Him once again. God calls, man either rejects or accepts. We, that is all men, will be held accountable for that decision and what they did with the Gift of Christ. I don't see total depravity after Christ. That would mean Christ failed in His mission.
Actually by the definition you gave of Total Depravity, that it means all of man was affected by sin, this is still true of the regenerated man. You will either need a new definition or accept the Biblical teaching regarding sin.
He came for the express purpose to save mankind from death and sin. He freed mankind to make that choice to live IN Christ.
I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. Did Christ come to actually save or only make salvation a mere possibility? If the purpose of Christs death was to actually make an atonement, actually redeem, draw all to Him infallibly, He has failed. Since God is incapable of failure, Christs death atoned for all the sins it was supposed to.
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John 1:6-11 speaks eloquently of the redemptive work of Christ for all men. All men who came into this world. Do you know of any who didn't?
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Joh 1:6-13 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (KJV)
Context is everything. The only ones enlightened unto salvation were those in verse 13, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
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Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (NASB)
Albert Barnes Notes Joh 1:13 - Which were born - This doubtless refers to the “new birth,” or to the great change in the sinner’s mind called regeneration or conversion. It means that they did not become the children of God in virtue of their natural birth, or because they were the children of “Jews,” or because they were descended from pious parents. The term “to be born” is often used to denote this change. Compare Joh_3:3-8; 1Jo_2:29. It illustrates clearly and beautifully this great change. The natural birth introduces us to life. The new birth is the beginning of spiritual life. Before, the sinner is “dead” in sins Eph_2:1; now he begins truly to live. And as the natural birth is the beginning of life, so to be born of God is to be introduced to real life, to light, to happiness, and to the favor of God. The term expresses at once the “greatness” and the “nature” of the change. Not of blood - The Greek word is plural; not of “bloods” - that is, not of “man.” Compare Mat_27:4. The Jews prided themselves on being the descendants of Abraham, Mat_3:9. They supposed that it was proof of the favor of God to be descended from such an illustrious ancestry. In this passage this notion is corrected. It is not because men are descended from an illustrious or pious parentage that they are entitled to the favor of God; or perhaps the meaning may be, not because there is a union of illustrious lines of ancestry or “bloods” in them. The law of Christ’s kingdom is different from what the Jews supposed. Compare 1Pe_1:23. It was necessary to be “born of God” by regeneration. Possibly, however, it may mean that they did not become children of God by the bloody rite of “circumcision,” as many of the Jews supposed they did. This is agreeable to the declaration of Paul in Rom_2:28-29.Nor of the will of the flesh - Not by natural generation. Nor of the will of man - This may refer, perhaps, to the will of man in adopting a child, as the former phrases do to the natural birth; and the design of using these three phrases may have been to say that they became the children of God neither in virtue of their descent from illustrious parents like Abraham, nor by their natural birth, nor by being “adopted” by a pious man. None of the ways by which we become entitled to the privileges of “children” among people can give us a title to be called the sons of God. It is not by human power or agency that men become children of the Most High. But of God - That is, God produces the change, and confers the privilege of being cawed his children. The heart is changed by his power. No unaided effort of man, no works of ours, can produce this change. At the same time, it is true that no man is renewed who does not himself “desire” and “will” to be a believer; for the effect of the change is on his “will” Psa_110:3, and no one is changed who does not strive to enter in at the strait gate, Phi_2:12.
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Your quote of John Calvin is not even addressing the status of mankind after Christ came. He is addressing the plight of mankind before Christ and His redemptive work.
Most of the passages I offered were after Christ's death. I couldn't really understand the rest of your post. You also didn't offer any scriptural support or exegesis.
You Said "I don't see total depravity after Christ. That would mean Christ failed in His mission."
You are the one saying that Christ failed in His mission, because you insist that man has the ability to choose good from evil, and deny the gift of salvation. If Christ only accomplished the possibility of salvation, then it is hypothetically possible than NO ONE would choose to accept the gift and Christ died for nothing!
Christ came to redeem ONLY those that the Father had given Him, no others. See John 17:6 and John 17:9.
The next discussion you need to have is about the supposed "free will" you think man has! I pray that your eyes will be opened to the Truth of the Word, but first you must learn basic grammatical structure, of English and then Hebrew and Greek. Then you would be able to read the Bible yourself and not have it dictated and interpreted for you!
averagefellar said: I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. Did Christ come to actually save or only make salvation a mere possibility? If the purpose of Christ's death was to actually make an atonement, actually redeem, draw all to Him infallibly, He has failed. Since God is incapable of failure, Christ's death atoned for all the sins it was supposed to.
"He came to SEEK and to save those who were LOST" He did save/make atonement for those who believed [look up "believed"-means an act of belief--an action! not to be confused with a work] so that was success! Anything but failure! What Christ accomplished on the cross should NEVER be thought of as that!!! You don't have the right to define infallible. If He came to die for only those who He KNEW would believe, then you can not say otherwise. It didn't say he died for the saved! That would have been a waste! He died for the lost! -Jonathan Ditmer
djjonnyd said: Is it God's Will for you to be condesending? or prideful? -Jonathan
And what does this <font size="4"><script language="JavaScript" src="includes/ubbt_blink.js"></script><span id="blink"><blink>SCHMOOZE</blink></span><script language="JavaScript">blink();</script></font> have to do with anything that Ruth wrote in her rebuke of this man who is steeped in heresy? Of course, for someone who has set Rick Warren on a pedestal, and embraced his heretical views, it isn't surprising that you would make such an unwarranted comment. We deal with propositional truth and not egalitarianism, pluralism and pragmatism as it is with so many modern churches and with those who profess to be Christians.
djjonnyd said: "He came to SEEK and to save those who were LOST" He did save/make atonement for those who believed [look up "believed"-means an act of belief--an action! not to be confused with a work] so that was success! Anything but failure! What Christ accomplished on the cross should NEVER be thought of as that!!! You don't have the right to define infallible. If He came to die for only those who He KNEW would believe, then you can not say otherwise. It didn't say he died for the saved! That would have been a waste! He died for the lost! -Jonathan Ditmer
Mr. Ditmer,
Did you actually READ the Forum Guidelines before you registered and before you put the check in the box acknowledging that you did read them? Do you have even the slightest idea what the theology of the Protestant Reformation is; i.e., the REFORMED Faith? Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with what the Scriptures teach concerning Christ's INFALLIBLE atonement, i.e., it actually accomplished that which the Father willed it to be, to save those whom the Father gave to the Son and in whom the Holy Spirit would create faith and INFALLIBLY draw them to Christ and preserve them to the end.
"He came to SEEK and to save those who were LOST" He did save/make atonement for those who believed [look up "believed"-means an act of belief--an action! not to be confused with a work] so that was success! Anything but failure! What Christ accomplished on the cross should NEVER be thought of as that!!! You don't have the right to define infallible. If He came to die for only those who He KNEW would believe, then you can not say otherwise. It didn't say he died for the saved! That would have been a waste! He died for the lost!
First, welcome to the forum. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hello.gif" alt="" /> While I agree with you that Christ was not a failure, respectfully, many of your other thoughts here are riddled with error.
A. You claim that we can’t define “infallible.” However, in the way the term is being used (i.e. being infallibly drawn to Christ) to say such would be tantamount to saying that one’s salvation is not sure, for if it is not sure in the LORD, then there is no surety for it! Thus, your assertion is incorrect. The drawing of God to salvation is as sure as the salvation itself is.
B. Next you claim that “He came to die for only those who He KNEW would believe.” I understand your statement to mean, "God foreordained us because He foreknew our decision," which if I have understood you correctly you are incorrectly dividing and separating God’s fore-knowledge from His fore-ordination. Maybe you did not mean this ... <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />
C. While Christ did die for the LOST, He did not die for ALL the LOST, neither did He come to efficaciously SEEK ALL the LOST. The atonement was limited in design, but not in power. Though His message would be heard by many, it would only be efficaciously heard by God’s elect—those God had given Him before the foundation of the world.
What William is saying is that if Jesus died for every person without exception, then Jesus is a failure because people He supposedly satisfied the wrath of God for are in Hell. Either you have to deny substitutionary atonement, believe everyone is saved, or believe Christ died for the elect (not that the elect never were lost, for the Bible says they once were lost).
Both Calvinists and Arminians believe in a limited atonement. It's just that the Arminians view it as limited in power, while Calvinists view it as limited in extent.
BTW, this thread is going off topic in my opinion, and we have discussed the atonement many places elsewhere on this board, which I'd encourage you to read. Also, here are several links to articles:
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Did you just fall in here in the middle of this? Sorry if you thought I was being "condescending? or prideful?", but sojourner has constantly castigated averagefella for his supposed lack of continuity or poor interpretation, and I was trying to point out that the shoe was on the other foot!
There is just no way, if you properly exegete the text of the passages noted, to come up with the interpretation proposed by sojourner! Let's get proper exegesis! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />
Ruth, you have absolutely nothing to be sorry for. You should be commended for standing up for the proper exegesis of Scripture and defending the truth and character of what "averagefella" asserted. When liberals, heretics, and others can't defend their position or see the light biblically they normally cry foul and embrace "a spirit" of their own false judgment and lack of understanding, instead of submitting to the Holy Spirit and repenting.
You are the one saying that Christ failed in His mission, because you insist that man has the ability to choose good from evil, and deny the gift of salvation. If Christ only accomplished the possibility of salvation, then it is hypothetically possible than NO ONE would choose to accept the gift and Christ died for nothing!
God in fact did not fail. He came to redeem His creation, and every sinner that every lived. He accomplished that fact totally. He overcame the fall for every single human being. Adam sinned and plunged the universe into death and corruption (sin). Christ overcame death, thus freed mankind from that bondage to death and sin. How successful does one need to be. Not one was unredeemed. Christ put mankind back into the pre-Adamic state of being able to once again commune with God. Death and sin prevented communion with God. Now man can again commune, however, the choice of whether we will or will not commune with God is left to man,just as it was left to Adam. His one sin was universal in its scope and brought death to ll. Our sin now after Christ can still separate us from God if we chose to deny the spirit. Those that do not believe have already been condemned.
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If Christ only accomplished the possibility of salvation, then it is hypothetically possible than NO ONE would choose to accept the gift and Christ died for nothing
He accomplished it only for the sole purpose that ALL men would again have that choice. The topic of this thread is total depravity which is not the meaning for me, however, what Adam did was to prevent man from every again being in Union with God. That is why man could never save himself. He was dead. He needed to be made alive. This is precisely what Christ did in His redemptive work.
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Christ came to redeem ONLY those that the Father had given Him, no others. See John 17:6 and John 17:9.
John 17:6 and 9 is not addressing believers, only the apostles. This whole chapter is Christ's prayer for himself, vs 1-5, for His disciples vs 6-19, vs 20-23 for His Church, vs24-26 for the world.
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The next discussion you need to have is about the supposed "free will" you think man has! I pray that your eyes will be opened to the Truth of the Word, but first you must learn basic grammatical structure, of English and then Hebrew and Greek. Then you would be able to read the Bible yourself and not have it dictated and interpreted for you!
Unless you can theologically show that Adam did not of his own will chose to sin, you can make a statement that man has no will. You will need to show that God also has no will, because scripturally that is part of our Image of God. As to learning Greek, that is moot. It was given in Greek, explained in Greek, was practiced in Greek, was written in Greek. Why would I need to do better than the Greeks. Also, the Bible expressly forbides private interpretation for the sole purpose that salvation, the Gospel was not given to a single individual ever. It's just that I trust Christ with the Power of the Holy Spirit to do a much better job than mere man. You or myself.
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