The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Total Depravity with scriptural support

If it is true that God's purpose is that every man come to eternal life, then God most certainly fails in His purpose when He allows a great portion of mankind to fall into hell. I do not believe God can fail in His purposes, and so I do not believe that God's purpose is that every man come to eternal life.


In the Acts, it is written, "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed" (13:48). This indicates that God predestined ("appointed") some to eternal life.


What on earth does this mean? Do you think the souls of those men who perished in Noah's day were obliterated? The man always has remained after physical death, either in life eternal or in death eternal.


Christ did not accomplish this situation. What He accomplished on the cross was to guarantee life eternal for all His sheep.

Not one shred of anything substantial. No exegesis, no refutation, no scholarship, and even a willing blind eye to all that yiou have been offered. Standing on a soapbox doesn't elevate you to correct by default.


God bless,

william

Who are you responding to?

Well then clearly you are unsaved and can never be saved if your present theological thoughts continue to rule your belief system. Moreover, you are espousing heresy. First, you state man "through redemption" was merely put back into the pre-fall state of Adam. However, this is completely false as before the fall Adam was not even familiar with "actual sin," as fallen man is today (prior to salvation). In addition, Adam exercised his freedom in an unfallen world not a fallen world. Thus, your definition of redemption is faulty. Second, you are espousing a "works righteousness" in order to inherit eternal life which is a direct contradiction of Eph 2:8-10 and a host of other Scriptures. Third, you fail to see the forensic aspect of justification and substitute for it "sanctification alone" as the way to God. Fourth, if Christ made salvation a mere "possibility" then He actually accomplished nothing specifically at all for any, which is a direct contradiction of Heb 9:28 and many other texts.

CovenantInBlood,

Depending on how you understand eternal life, every man will have eternal life. See Acts 24:15. It was part of Christ's work to bring Life to all men. This is eternal life. Immortality. In that He certainly did not fail.
That fact that some men will not choose Christ and make a diliberate negative answer to God's call is not the problem of God but of man. God desires that all men be saved, however in His purpose of creating man gave him a will so that man could voluntarily, without compulsion, without force, without manipulation choose to freely love and obey. If not, there is absolutely no purpose for man in this creation, except to be a toy of God.
That is why limiting God's power is making God a failure. He didn't do what He purposed to do.

Again context: Jesus came to save those of the House of Isreal. He also knew that they had rejected Him. The prophets of the OT had foretold that the Gospel, the Messianic Age would also be to the Gentiles. If you go back up to verse 46 that is explained to you. Paul then goes directly lto the Gentiles. They had been appointed to receive the Gospel in this age. That is the meaning and use of the word appointed. Simply, not just the Jews but Gentiles which in effect meant every human being since.
Acts 2:47 also reinforces this concept.

Absolutely, that is the whole basis of the Christian Gospel.

A little theology to help with this understanding. Man is a unique creature. He is both divine and material. This is what is also meant by the creation into His Image. Mans soul was created to be eternal. It would never die. 'Since the soul was joined with the body, a physical or earthly element God created the whole man to be immortal. Man cannot live apart from having both. The soul gives the body life and the body gives substance to the soul. In other words we are not spirits.
Adam was created good, not perfect. He was neither mortal nor immortal. How do we know this. Because when he sinned he became mortal. If he had not sinned he would have become immortal. He could not have been immortal because immortal cannot become mortal.

This the the sole reason of the Incarnation. God needed to redeem the physical creation in order to put mankind back to gether, that is body and soul for eternity. Under Adams judgement of death, man would have died the physcial death whereby the body decays, and the soul lives in eternity, but also a spiritual death because man could have never been reunited with God without Christ, thus the soul(s) of all men would be eternally in hell. That would essentially annhilate God's sovereign purpose for man and His creation.

So, Christ came to give life to all men, correct the judgement, Give immortality to all men. The just and the unjust. It is man who will dicide on which side of the wall he will spend eternity. Man must chose this day whom he will serve.

He did not guarantee any such thing, even for His sheep. He promised eternal life IN Christ to those who believe, John 3:16. It is whosoever, not those specially designated.. All who believe are His sheep. The texts I posted on this thread twice already all speak to this very fact.

Actually, I can show that is actually true in the sense that all humans are His Sheep, He created them, preserves all life,. and give immortality to all life including the universe. He loves all sinners, His love never faileth.

Theologically, and Scripturally, the only way you could hold to such a view, is that man in his essence is not the same. So that in the Incarnation of Christ, those men who of only that certain nature or essence would be saved, thus excluding all other men who are somehow of a different essence. If this is true, which is what you would have to hold with your view, then please show me these human beings that are different in their humaness from some others. And that would hold true for the universe as well. Some part of the universe can be associated with certain of mankind but not all. Whatever the essence of those Incarnated by Christ would also be the essence that corresponds with the Universe. All other humans who are associated with that portion of the created world that is different would not be redeemed. Then you could scripturally hold to the view that all means some, because the some refers to a specific kind of human.
So lets hear your proof. Scripturally.

The only thing that is guaranteed is the Work of Christ on the Cross. That work is theologically called redemption. The salvation of individual man, the purpose of man in this created order, is a synergistic cooperation between God and man. Adam's walk, our walk. Living the life of Christ IN Christ. Becoming Like Christ, attaining the conformation to His Image.

If I understand eternal life not to be eternal life, then perhaps everyone will have eternal life. But then, it won't really be eternal life, now will it? What perversity to call eternal death a type of eternal life!


"Who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the moder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called not from among the Jews only, but also from among Gentiles" (Rom. 9:20–24).


A god who is not capable of accomplishing his will is no god at all.


Your interpretation is nonsense. The verse says, "As many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." If the "appointment to eternal life" is simply being made morally neutral such that one may choose either good or evil without a predisposed bias, then following from this verse all WOULD believe. But we know that not all believe, and indeed the verse implies that not even all present there believed, but rather only those who had been appointed to eternal life believed.


How does it solve the problem when the greater portion of mankind will burn eternally in the pit of hell, will die eternally? That is as much an annihilation of God's purpose in your scheme as anything, for both body and soul are continually destroyed in hell. There is no eternal life there.


Indeed, all who believe are His sheep. However, only those whom God has appointed (predestined) to eternal life will believe! "Whosoever" does not imply that every individual may choose to believe, only that belief is not restricted to a particular class of human beings, i.e., the Jews. ANY who believe, Jew or Gentile, male of female, free or slave, will not perish, but have eternal life.


Indeed, He loves the greater portion of man to such an extent that He allows them to perish eternally. What love is this!


Absolutely and utterly wrong. All men alike are sinners; no man differs in his humanness or in his fallenness from other men (except for the Man, Jesus). For Paul writes, "You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrat, even as the rest" (Eph. 2:1–3). The difference between the sheep and the goats arises not from within the sheep, but from outside the sheep; indeed, the difference that arises between the sheep and the goats is the result of God's love for the sheep, just as it is written: "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:4–7).


The proof of the predestination of the elect: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to the kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were SEALED IN HIM with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:3–14).


"Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:3).

sojourner said, "It is whosoever, not those specially designated." I am pretty sure that the word "whosoever" was not in the original text. It might better read "that he gave his only Son, that the believing ones should not perish but have eternal life."

I remember reading that somewhere but it could be false...anyone know for sure?

The word translated as "whosoever" is "pas."

According to this lexicon:

1. individually
a. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2. collectively
b. some of all types

... "the whole world has gone after him" Did all the world go after Christ? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan." Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? "Ye are of God, little children", and the whole world lieth in the wicked one". Does the whole world there mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...

Thanks CovenantInBlood. I know that the greek word is in the lexicon but i read in an article that it was added written by, should i be so brave to mention him, matthew mcmahon.
He said "...In all reality, the word “whosoever” in the Greek text does not even appear. It is nowhere to be found... It is more of an interpretive help in understanding the verse by the translators. Scholars have added the word in an attempt to help you understand the verse and Christ’s meaning there."

Where he got that from i have no idea. I had to do some serious searching for that article but it was bugging me.

Maybe he means the Greek word for "whoever" isn't in the text? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/shrug.gif" alt="" />

J Edwards,



That is because you do not accept the Gospel once given. It is heresy as per your view which you have not shown to be scriptural as yet.

That is also because you are not following the purpose of redemption. We are not speaking of the state of Adam's nature vs ours, but that the freedom of the will which he had, is the same for all of mankind now that our natures have been redeemed. Christ freed mankind from that bondage. Very simple theology.

Again, you are confusing the respective states with the ability to choose, to exercise our God-given will, created in His Image, the redemption from the bondage of death in which Adam placed all men. Christ knew precisely that man would have a very difficult time in overcoming his own fallen nature, the sinful world and the fact the devil will work mightily in tempting Christians.
Thus He provided us with some marvelous gifts which protect, strengthens us, and helps man walk with Him in Union, which Adam did not enjoy because He, in fact did not have, a sinful nature, yet he chose to leave this communion with God. What are some of those gifts...
The Church, His Body in which the Holy Spirit dwells, and Christ dwells within each believer. He strengthens us through the sacraments.

Again,. faulty understanding and trying to put both redemption and the salvation of individual man into the same definition.
We completely adhere to Eph 2: 8-10 and a lot of other texts which says the same thing. It is simply speaking of the redemptive work of Christ. Man did not do anything, cannot do anything, is incapable of doing anything to redeem himself. We are justified by faith. When we believe that Christ did in fact save us from death and sin, by faith in Him justifies us to God. Faith does not save us.
It is not about inheriting eternal life. We all will inherit eternal life. However, there is a difference in that I desire to have eternal life with Christ.



There is no forensic aspect to justification. It happens to be a misuse of a latin word to describe a relationship that is not legal. It means to be put into a right relationship. That is what faith does for individual man. It justifies man to God. Sanctification however, is not ever alone. You cannot have either justification, nor sanctification apart from each other. They compliment each other. Sanctification is our walk with God, It is the living of our created purpose through Christ to conforming to His Image, to properly exercise the three fold offices of mankind which Christ redeemed for man.

The salvation of man that you are now referencing, that is the individual salvation of man, is no different than that of Adam. He made it possible for Adam to either become mortal or immortal. He did this with a command to obey Him and thus stay in Communion with Him, or reject Him by eating of the Tree of Good and Evil. Adam ate.
Christ now comes to each man with a command. He specifically freed mankind to be able to make this decision, and then if one choses Christ, Christ works with man in fulfilling man's created purpose, which Adam was doing before he fell.
I mentioned earlier, one needs to align salvation with the fall. The communion Adam had was not the problem, had nothing to do with the fall. Adam sinned, thus could not walk with God any longer.
Why do you think that Christ is going to fulfil man's purpose in this world. There is nothing is scripture that says Christ will do what man was created to do. Why would God have created man in the first place and even to redeem Him if Christ was going to do the work of man.
You confuse the fall/redemption with the salvation of individual man/communion with God aspect of the whole Biblical story. If you chose not to walk with God (Christ) then you suffer the consequences of hell, spiritual death for eternity, immortally.
Specifically, Hebrew 9:28 tells you point blank that salvation will be accomplished finally in the last day. It is moving back tro the sacrifical act of the Day of Atonement vs 11-14. The blood sprinkled here brings the life of the covenantal people into God's presence. It reconciles God and man. The final reconciliation, the eternal one, is the presentation of Christ's sacrificial blood vs 24 to God in Heaven. That is why our physical death ends sin and with His second coming it ends sin completely. The last enemy is death.

soli Deo Gloria,

It does not change the meaning whatsoever. Those that believe determines who will be saved. Belief or faith in entrance into the Kingdom.

Joe

I think it is safe to say that Henry was responding to sojourner, since I posted that article for sojourner’s benefit.

Tom

But that is not what it says in ephesians as CovenantinBlood already showed.

Sojourner,


Okay, so who will believe?