The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Christian Soldier

speratus said:
However, if the difference was really significant, why don't the Reform split over this issue? From your previous statements, you appear to be Zwinglian. Yet, you confess the Calvinist WCF?

Lastly you said:
As Belgic Confession states, the false church persecutes those who live holy lives and who rebuke it for its faults, greed, and idolatry (e.g., Dr. Shultz).

Formula of Concord, Solid DeclarationWe believe, teach, and confess also that at the time of confession, when the enemies of God's Word desire to suppress the pure doctrine of the holy Gospel, the entire congregation of God, yea, every Christian, but especially the ministers of the Word, as the leaders of the congregation of God are bound by God's Word to confess freely and openly the doctrine, and what belongs to the whole of religion, not only in words, but also in works and with deeds; and that then, in this case, even in such adiaphora, they must not yield to the adversaries, or permit these to be forced upon them by their enemies, whether by violence or cunning, to the detriment of the true worship of God and the introduction and sanction of idolatry.

Statements are not persecution. Burning people at the stake (Hus), firing them from their job(Schulz), etc. is persecution.

Various Forms:

It would take different forms, ranging through every possible variety, from false accusation to the infliction of death, beyond which, He pointed out (Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:4), persecutors are unable to go. The methods of persecution which were employed by the Jews, and also by the heathen against the followers of Christ, were such as these: (1) Men would revile them and would say all manner of evil against them falsely, for Christ's sake (Matthew 5:11). (2) Contempt and disparagement: "Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a demon?" (John 8:48); "If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more them of his household!" (Matthew 10:25). (3) Being, solely on account of their loyalty to Christ, forcibly separated from the company and the society of others, and expelled from the synagogues or other assemblies for the worship of God: "Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake" (Luke 6:22); "They shall put you out of the synagogues" (John 16:2). (4) Illegal arrest and spoliation of goods, and death itself.

All these various methods, used by the persecutor, were foretold, and all came to pass. It was the fear of apprehension and death that led the eleven disciples to forsake Jesus in Gethsemane and to flee for their lives. Jesus often forewarned them of the severity of the persecution which they would need to encounter if they were loyal to Him: "The hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God" (John 16:2); "I send unto you prophets .... some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city" (Matthew 23:34).

In the Case of Jesus:

In the case of Christ Himself, persecution took the form of attempts to entrap Him in His speech (Matthew 22:15); the questioning of His authority (Mark 11:28); illegal arrest; the heaping of every insult upon Him as a prisoner; false accusation; and a violent and most cruel death.

speratus said:
Of course, slander, reproach, etc. are persecution.

But Pilgrim was referring to contradictory statements of doctrine not personal attack.

1 Timothy 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I am glad you agree, but that was not your statement. You specified a definition of persecution as being "Statements are not persecution. Burning people at the stake (Hus), firing them from their job(Schulz), etc. is persecution."

Is it not personal to God when you defame and mis-state His holy doctrine and make it profane? Is it possible to blasphemy God's doctrine and thus persecute God and be punished? Can Christians be persecuted by blaspheme?

False doctrine persecutes not only God, but His children (His Church) as well.

speratus said:

We do not consider the difference significant since both Reform camps deny the real presence of the body and blood of Christ in the unity of the person.

When representatives of true churches and false churches meet to freely discuss theological issues without rancor or slander (say on a discussion board called "The Highway"), there is no persecution of the true churches.

CovenantInBlood said:

In what does the "Real Presence" consist, Speratus? To say that Christ's body and blood are present with the bread and wine is not the same as to say that they are the bread and wine. The phrase in Latin, hoc est corpus meum ("this is my body"), which Luther insisted on does not indicate that the body is present with the bread. The Romanists go still further and say that the bread and wine become the body and blood, but even that is not to say that they are the body and blood, for Christ never said they the bread and wine become anything, but that they already are.

Formula of Concord quoting Luther,
the incomprehensible, spiritual mode, according to which He neither occupies nor vacates space, but penetrates all creatures wherever He pleases ; as, to make an imperfect comparison, my sight penetrates and is in air, light, or water, and does not occupy or vacate space; as a sound or tone penetrates and is in air or water or board and wall, and also does not occupy or vacate space; likewise, as light and heat penetrate and are in air, water, glass, crystal, and the like, and also do not vacate or occupy space; and much more of the like . This mode He used when He rose from the closed (and sealed) sepulcher, and passed through the closed door (to His disciples), and in the bread and wine in the Holy Supper, and, as it is believed, when He was born of His mother.

speratus said:

We know from scripture that the bread and wine remain unchanged and that the body and the blood of Christ are distributed to and received by those who eat and drink. In the communication of the divine attributes, the body and blood of Christ are present in, with, and under the bread and wine in the incomprehensible spiritual mode in which He neither occupies nor vacates space.

To quote an insistent Luther, "hoc EST"! Scripture knows nothing of Christ's body being present "in, with, and under" the bread and wine. Christ said, "This IS My body"! Nowhere did He say, "My body is present in, with, and under".

If you want to treat the text as literally as possible, then you must consider the bread itself to be the body, and the wine itself to be the blood.

By the same logic, scripture knows nothing of the hypostatic union.

The Calvinists attempt to reconcile the two texts by separating Christ from His humanity contrary to the texts that speak of the unity of the person.

No. Saying the bread is literally Christ's body would be adding to the text. The text literally says that which is distributed and received is Christ's body.