The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum NCT History?

We can trace Dispensational Premillenialism back to about 1830 (give or take). Does anyone know how far back we can trace NCT?

Tom

It has been suggested that NCT is a derivative of John Bunyan’s treatise on law and grace. It has also been suggested that NCT strongly agrees with the London Baptist Confession of 1649.

Please note that NCT is different than CT, which reaches back as far as the ECF (though undeveloped to its fullest...Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD) in The City of God taught the outlines of what would become central elements in classic Reformed theology, the covenant of works and the covenant of grace).

Thanks Joe

I don't know a lot about the London Baptist Confession of 1649. But I do know that the London Baptist Confession of 1689 disagrees with NCT. The London Baptist Confession of 1689 whole heartedly supports CT.

Yes I am aware that NCT is different than CT.
I am also aware that you disagree with the Reformed Baptist form of CT, but at this time would rather not get into that.
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Tom

I am not even close to being dispensational but I was told by a dispensationalist that dispensational thought can be traced back to augustine and even Clement. It is obvious in the city of God that augustine was not dispensational but did he ever hold to "dispensational thought?" Or is dispensationalism totally new to the scene with darby and the brethren movement?

This article just might help re: The History of Chiliasm

Pilgrim

Thanks for the article. Unless I am missing something, it would seem to put into question the 1830 date that I had previously researched.

Tom

Tom,

Pre-millenial dispensationalism, with its emphasis on a "rapture" of the saints seven years before the coming of the Lord to a earthly kingdom did have its origins at about 1830.

It was preached by the Irvingites and the Plymouth Bretheran after a "prophetic trance session" of Charismatics by one Margaret McDonald in Glasgow, Scotland.

Pre-millenialism and a future Antichrist or Chialism was extremely emphasized by the Roman Catholic Church to "take the heat off" because the reformers were rightfully (my view) calling the pope Antichrist. Calling the pope Antichrist is embedded in the Westminster Confession. (Chapter XXV, VI) 1646

Chiliasm is the belief that Christ will return to establish a kingdom of peace on this earth for one thousand years. Chiliasm did have other speculative roots in Munster and the Anabaptists, but I believe that the best refutation was penned by John Calvin in a commentary on I Thess. 4:17.

"To those who have been gathered to Christ he promisses eternal life with Him, by which statements the reveries of Origen and of the Chiliasts are abundantly refuted. For the life of believers, when they have once been gathered into one kingdom, will have no end any more than Christ's. Now, to assign to Christ a thousand years, so that He would afterwards cease to reign, were too horrible to be made mention of."

Calvin elaborated in the Institutes III,25,5,

"Those who assign only a thousand years to the children of God to enjoy the inheritance of future life, observe not how great an insult they offer to Christ and His kingdom."

Denny

Roms: 3:22-24

Though I tend to agree with you concerning CT and LBCF, my exact words were; "It has also been suggested[/b] that NCT strongly agrees with the London Baptist Confession of 1649." This can be seen in such statements as;

Providence Theological Institute's Answer to Question 1, which states:

or, the article New Covenant Critique of Dispensationalism, which states:

As you can see many in the NCT appeal to the LBCF as part and parcel of their historical roots and would desire to argue this point with you.....

And yes, I disagree with the Reformed Baptist form of CT, but agree with Spurgeon who said, ""He who understands the covenant has reached the very core and marrow of the Gospel." As Spurgeon said in his 1891 inaugural address at his Pastor's College Conference, "I love men who love the covenant of grace, and base their divinity upon it; the doctrine of the covenants is the key of theology."

Another worthy book of consideration is Peter Golding's book Covenant Theology, The Key of Theology in Reformed Thought and Tradition (Mentor, 2004). He actually "briefly" traces CT back as far as Barbabas, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus, though of course the doctrine was still in infancy in their understanding.

Joe

Once again I thank you for the information.
I also saw in your first post the word "suggested" and I understood your meaning.
Sorry if my wording confused you.

Tom

If you actually read Augustine you will see that his beliefs were VERRRRYYY different from Reformed beliefs. I do find it humorous that Reformed folks state they are carrying on the tradition of Augustine.
1) Augustine Believed in Purgatory and Praying for the Departed
2) Augustine Believed in the Necessity of the Lord's Supper for Salvation
3) Augustine Believed the Mass to be a Sacrifice
4) Augustine Believed in the Real Presence
5) Augustine Believed Baptism was Necessary for Salvation
6) Augustine believed in Baptismal Regeneration and Grace
7) Augustine Believed in Authoritative Tradition
8) Augustine believed the canon of Scripture to contain the Greek OT canon also known today as the deuterocanonicals or "Apocrypha"
9) Augustine Believed In the Communion of Saints and Saintly Intercession
10) Augustine Believed in the Authority of the Church
11) Augustine Believed in Apostolic Succession
12) Augustine Believed in the Possibility of Falling from Grace
13) Augustine Believed in the Sacrament of Penance
14) Augustine Believed Mary To Be Ever Virgin (of course so did Calvin...)

It depends. Edwards talked of dispensations. Many Reformers will talk about dispensations. So it depends what you mean by dispensation.
Most Reformed folks unfairly stereotype what Dispensationalists believe, and are quite incorrect. That is not to say that Dispy's are correct, as they are not. But a read of Dispensationalism by Charles Ryrie will clarify some points. Let a Dispensationalist tell you what he believes and what the theory is, because it is far different from what many state.

I think you missed the point.
We don't claim to believe everything that Augustine held to. We do however believe what he said about imputed righteousness.

Tom

And R.C. Sproul is a Partial Preterist and Luther remained Catholic when he first became Reformed, however both men are to be esteemed highly and even occasionally quoted for their other beliefs that are consistent with the faith once delivered. Though I and others would find much of Augustine in error it must be understood that he still was developing in his faith--as are all of us. If you are looking for someone in ancient or present day history that is 100% correct in all their theology to quote, you will never find a single one (save some in Scripture). Thus, even you are left with nothing else to say and thus should not be posting anything else here or anywhere! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/3stooges.gif" alt="" />

Tom said it well, YOU MISSED THE POINT!!!

PS: you are correct though I do need to read more of Augustine than merely, Confessions, Augustine of Hippo: A Biography, The City of God, Saint Augustine's Conversion, Augustine the African, On Christian Doctrine, Answer to the Pelagians II: Works of Saint Augustine I/24, and the English versions of: De vera religione, Contra Faustum Manichaeum, in Ioannis epistulam tractatus, and Regula sancti Augustini, etc. It would be nice to have all his works, but I am a long way from that.... Anyway thanks for the reminder. I will add some more of his books in my next book order from WTS. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" />