The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum The Afterlife

Can anyone elaborate on the relationship between Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, Abraham's Bosom, and Heaven? Tall order, I know. There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding what exactly is the state of the soul before the general resurrection and final judgement, as well as the state of the souls of the righteous prior to Christ's resurrection. Now, my initial thoughts would be as follows:

There is no difference between the state of righteous souls in the afterlife before and after Christ's resurrection. Upon death, the disembodied souls of the wicked go to hell (hades/sheol?) and the disembodied souls of the righteous go to heaven (which I take "Abraham's Bosom" to be an expression for), where they await the general resurrection and final judgement. At the general resurrection the souls of both the wicked and the righteous are re-embodied, and upon judgement, the wicked are cast body and soul into hell (Gehenna/lake of fire?) while the righteous inherit the new earth.

I would agree with all that you wrote with the exception that hell, hades, Gehenna, Abraham's bosom and the Lake of Fire are all the same place, although it may be that the "Lake of Fire" differs only in that it is the permanent place where both the soul's of the reprobate AND wicked angels will be consigned.

In His Grace,

Abraham's Bosom is the same as hell?

Whoops! That's what I get for being too much in a rush and involved in multitasking.

Abraham's bosom and heaven are synonymous is what I should have written.

Thanks for clarifying.

What happened to Paradise ? Jesus said to the thief,you will be in Paradise.

The old testament saints, they were in Paradise till the resurrection,then Heaven right ?

I have more questions then answers, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hairout.gif" alt="" /> Will this ever change ?? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rainbow.gif" alt="" />

neicey

Paradise is generally equivalent to heaven which is the temporary residence for departed souls of the saints (aka: believers) until the Judgment.

In His grace,

In this life, no it will never change. Questions are a good thing!


It's all part of renewing your mind! As long as you seek the answers to your questions in God's infallible, immutable Word, God will use your questions to bring you into conformity with His Word!

Why did Jesus say to Mary Magdalene "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father"... if he was just in paradise which is synonymous or "equivalent" with heaven?

I am just curious if you answer this the same way i do.

Excellent question. The tense of the action here (John 20:17) reveals the cutting off of an action that has already begun. In essence, Jesus was saying, “stop hanging on to my physical body now”, or do not think, that by holding me firmly, you can keep me always with you in this present state (Matt. 28:9). Mary, as all Christians, desired to be in an uninterruptible fellowship with Christ. Jesus was telling her that she must wait until He has ascended to the Father (only then would the Holy Spirit come). PLEASE note that Jesus did not object to being touched (remember His words to Thomas). What He was concerned with was Mary’s mistaken idea that the former form of fellowship was going to continue as it was before. What Christ was revealing was that His relationship with her and others would now be changed. The fellowship would continue, but it would be far richer. The fellowship now would be the communion of the ascended Lord in the Spirit with His Church.

To me the idea of a place for dead folks to wait 'till judgement is a human thing. Its like the need for a zero in math: it serves a function, but its really just a place holder. I have always been under the impression that everyone is going to get to heaven at the same time--which isn't outside the realm of possibility for an Eternal God who created time along with everything else. The idea of restricting him to a linear timeline isn't very appealing. (Note I'm not advocating the non-existence of hell just taking a slap at the idea of purgatory-like waiting locations)

Plus, I don't really see anything like that laid out in the NT.

doulos,

Since you reject the historic doctrine what do you believe happens when a person dies; both elect and reprobate? I'd be interested to hear what you believe happens upon death.

Oh, btw... the whole Scripture, not just the NT, does teach the historic doctrine that at death, the soul departs from the body and goes to another "place". The souls of the elect go to heaven where they await the judgment and their glorification where their souls are rejoined to their renewed glorified bodies. The souls of the reprobate go to hell, where they await their judgment and thus they remain in hell forever. There is no "purgatory" nor "limbo" taught in Scripture, however.

In His Grace,

I appreciate candor, especially, when dealing with theological issues. Theres not really any other way to deal with them except drag them out in the light and see if they wither and die.

Let me just say first that I'm going to be happy with what actually does happen because thats the way God set it up and you can be sure he knows more about it. There have been some pretty smart people take a crack and what they think is going to happen but eschatology seems to consist mainly of a great deal of speculation. Prayerful speculation I am sure but I don't actually KNOW whats going to happen and neither does anyone else.

As far as what happens when someone dies, I think I put it in the first post. Right here:

doulos wroteIt mostly stems from the idea that God is Eternal and unchanging. To me that means he is unaffected by the clock. I think time is something he created for us to sort of coddle us along until we, er, grow up? I don't know exactly how to put it but I get the impression that he put the World on a clock a) for our convenience b)to give us a sense that we've really only got so long to make up our minds about Him. Time's not something God really needs.

It wasn't a straight line from there to "Where do folks go when they die?" but eventually the two thoughts collided and the answer was, "Outside of time." *shrug I just couldn't get all the events that were supposed to happen to line up in my head--some have accused me of not having enough room in there--unless, that is, you remove the requirement for a strict linear timeline which, to me, God doesn't have. We have that need so of course there's a place holder for souls to wait around in until the appointed time. I like the idea of them being asleep in the grave until the rapture better than any sort of communal holding tank sort of affair like purgatory, etc.

As for saved and lost status: I'm of the mind that when all the different dead folks show up where ever they're supposed to go that they're ALL going to be there and thats when they get sorted out. There's too much talk in the Bible about sorting sheep from the goats and people and demons getting cast into the lake of fire for there not to be some huge final event where God makes the point that he truly is the God of all creation and not your bass boat or your Beemer. "Every knee shall bow..."[Romans 14:11;Isaiah 45:23]

Considering I go to a church where you could almost get burned as a heretic for buying a Walt Disney flick I don't think its too surprising that I haven't discussed this with a great number of people. The few that I have who had a few thoughts to rub together thought I had a lot of nerve for even considering that the saints would have to appear in front of the judgement seat.

This is a good exercise and I appreciate greatly the opportunity this website provides to discuss these things.

But it's not like Purgatory. Purgatory is not a holding tank until the final judgement. Purgatory is a place where sinners work off their debt and are eventually released to heaven. The orthodox doctrine of heaven and hell conceives of these places as where the disembodied souls of the dead reside until the general resurrection and final judgement, a very different concept than working off your debt! The idea of soul sleep just isn't consistent with scriptural declarations concerning heaven and hell and the soul's departure from the body.

First of about the debt/purgatory thing. I think I said what you said but didn't say as much when I said it. Or at least I tried to.

Second, about the sleeping thing:
1 Thess 4:13-18 (NIV)
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

New Revised Standard, New Living, and probably some others say "those who have died" NIV, KJV, ASV, RSV, NASB, say some version of those who have fallen asleep. The greek seems to indicate Paul is using a euphemism for "Those dead guys" but it seems to me that being dead, to the Christian anyway, is more like taking a nap than anything else.

I'm going with asleep. God's grace is sufficient to keep us out of Purgatory or we're all in a world of hurt.

doulos,

As CovenantInGrace replied, the Scriptures know of no such thing as "soul sleep". A couple more references should help you see this, e.g.,

Luke 23:43 (ASV) "And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise."

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (ASV) "Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord (for we walk by faith, not by sight); we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord."

And William Hendriksen offers some further evidence that "soul sleep" is a man-made doctrine and counters it with even more proof that when the believer dies, the soul ascends to be in heaven with Christ.

The death of believers is often compared to sleep (Matt. 27:52; John 11:11-18; Acts 7:60; I Cor. 7:39; 15:6, 18; cf. “rest from their labors,” 1 14:18). The expression is based on Old Testament terminology with reference to death (Gen. 47:30; II Sam. 7:12). The comparison of death to sleep is particularly appropriate in implying not only rest from labor also the glorious awakening which believers expect on the other side. This falling asleep does not indicate an intermediate state of unconscious repose (soul-sleep). Though the soul is asleep to the world which it has left (Job 7:9, 10; Is. 63:16; Eccl. 9:6), it is awake with respect to its own world (Luke 16:19-31; 23:43; II Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:21-23; Rev. 7:15-17; 20:4) For other beautiful and comforting words and phrases describing the death of believers see N.T.C. on John 11:11-13.

A fair inference from the present passage is that during the short period which had elapsed since the Thessalonians first heard the Gospel some believers had passed from this earthly scene. It was with reference to them that friends and relatives were deeply disturbed. In fact, they were so alarmed that Paul adds: in order that you do not grieve as do the rest, who have no hope.

William Hendriksen, NTC I and II Thessalonians (Baker: Grand Rapids, 1975) pp. 109, 110.

In His Grace,

My purpose in that regard was to clarify that anything like Purgatory simply is not in view. Purgatory is not a legitimate comparison to the orthodox understanding of the state of departed souls between death and the general resurrection. There is no further debt to be paid by the righteous, and the wicked have an eternal debt which cannot be paid off in order to attain heaven.


I think part of Paul's purpose was indeed to point to the reality of the hope of eternal life for those Christians who have died. However, this is far from establishing that everyone remains in an unconscious state between death and the general resurrection. The story of the rich man and Lazarus, for one example, indicates that we remain conscious in that intervening period: the righteous dead in heavenly bliss and the wicked dead in hellish torments.


We can certainly agree that the Christ's death is sufficient to cover ALL debts, none of which the redeemed will have to pay in some purgatorial state.

CovenantInBlood said:

Right. You said it much better than I did/could and with no confusion.

I'm not sure who brought up the soul-sleep thing but its sort of a wrench in the works isn't it?

CovenantInBlood also said:

I think you've got your finger in the sore here. In this light I am inclined to return to my original--if somewhat maddening--idea that from the POV of the dead person no actual time passes between physical death and general resurrection. To that person they take their last breath, and when they open their eyes they are in the air.

Where's the scriptural warrant to hold to such a view? However, on the contrary there are biblical passages which would mitigate against this notion, such as:

Revelation 6:9-11 (ASV) "And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled [their course]."

The two elements you are wanting to deny are clearly present in this text: 1) The souls of those who had died are conscious and very much aware of their existence, where they are and even communicate with God. 2) These disembodied souls are also conscious of time, for they cried out, "How long . . . etc."

I can't help but ask "Why? are you opposed to the traditional, historical, biblical view on this particular subject? What is it that is bothering you so much that you would adopt a quasi-soul sleep position? Inquiring minds wanna know.

In His Grace,

Quoth Pilgrim:

I try to be very careful when quoting Revelation on anything but it seems to me that these are folks who were martyred not just saints who died of, say, cancer. Most translations say they died For the testimony they had borne, maintained, or held


And here it seems that they are waiting on the rest of their bretheren (and sister-en) who are also to be martyred. Yeah they're talking to the Lord, but it looks like a special group to me.

Pilgrim, I'm not really opposed to the historic view. You wrote something like "I'd really like to know what you think" so I told you the best I could. I think that the text could be combed either way with regard to the consciousness/unconsciousness of souls in general after death so I can't really say that the view you are espousing is any more or less biblical that what I said. I don't think I'd come out and say "You're opposed to a biblical view". At least not in a civil discussion among brothers--which I hope this remains--regarding what could arguably be considered a hair-splitter.

I'm still not sure where the soul sleep thing came in. I think Pilgrim introduced it. I've always thought, from what I've read, that there is an actual bodily resurrection. You know the trump sounds and the dead rise, that sort of thing. I've got seven different versions up here and they all say "sleep" and "we shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye" long about 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ish. It also appears that Paul uses the same word here:
1 Cor 15:51 (NIV) 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—

as opposed to death which he uses here:

1 Cor 15:26 (NIV)The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Here's another good example also from chapter 15:
1 Cor 15:16-18 (NIV) 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.

The same word is used for asleep (dead is different refering to dead bodies not death). I’m thinking there’s death as in “going to hell” death and death as in “dead but getting ready to LIVE”.

doulos,

First..... sorry you took offense to the fact that you ARE rejecting the "traditional, historical, biblical" view and at least leaning far more to the erroneous teaching called "soul sleep". Both can't be right!

Second, on what basis do you justify that those who have been martyred are to be bifurcated from all other believers and thus have this "special" existence of their souls at death? Paul says of ALL believers that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." (2Cor 5:8), which seems to indicate to me that at death the body is put in the grave and the soul returns to God/Christ to await the final Judgment. Again, the Lord Christ told the thief who was crucified next to him, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Lk 23:43). This thief surely can't be grouped among those who was martyred for his faith.

Lastly, in regard to your understanding of the word "sleep", I already gave you a reasonable answer to that by quoting William Hendriksen's comments from his most excellent commentary on that text in another reply below. But I'll quote it again here for your benefit.

The death of believers is often compared to sleep (Matt. 27:52; John 11:11-18; Acts 7:60; I Cor. 7:39; 15:6, 18; cf. “rest from their labors,” 1 14:18). The expression is based on Old Testament terminology with reference to death (Gen. 47:30; II Sam. 7:12). The comparison of death to sleep is particularly appropriate in implying not only rest from labor also the glorious awakening which believers expect on the other side. This falling asleep does not indicate an intermediate state of unconscious repose (soul-sleep). Though the soul is asleep to the world which it has left (Job 7:9, 10; Is. 63:16; Eccl. 9:6), it is awake with respect to its own world (Luke 16:19-31; 23:43; II Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:21-23; Rev. 7:15-17; 20:4) For other beautiful and comforting words and phrases describing the death of believers see N.T.C. on John 11:11-13.

A fair inference from the present passage is that during the short period which had elapsed since the Thessalonians first heard the Gospel some believers had passed from this earthly scene. It was with reference to them that friends and relatives were deeply disturbed. In fact, they were so alarmed that Paul adds: in order that you do not grieve as do the rest, who have no hope.

William Hendriksen, NTC I and II Thessalonians (Baker: Grand Rapids, 1975) pp. 109, 110.

I would have hoped that this would have sufficed to show you that when the word "sleep" is used in regard to the death of believers, at least, it is synonymous with the word "death"; i.e., that when a believer dies, he/she does not become non-existent, but rather it is a temporary separation of the soul from the body. The body returns to the dust from which it was made, and the soul returns to its Author to await the consummation where the body and soul will once again be united, albeit incorruptible.

In His Grace,

You brought up soul sleep not me. As far as the "bifurcated existence" whachamacallit I merely said thats what it looks like in the passage you quoted. Personally I agree with the passage you just said--to be away from the body is to be present with the Lord. And I think I said something about sleep being the death of believers.

Uh, are you actually reading anything I'm posting? I don't see that much difference in what we are saying.

Gee, I certainly thought I was reading what you have written in this thread. But perhaps I was actually sleeping.

Here is what I believe, which is the doctrine taught historically by the Church:

1. All men when they die experience a separation of the soul from the body.
2. The body returns to its basic elements from which it was created, aka: "dust".
3. The soul of the unregenerate (reprobate) go to hell to await final Judgment.
4. The soul of the regenerate (elect) go to heaven to await their final vindication and glorification where they will be reunited with a new body.
5. In either case, the soul is fully conscious of its surroundings; the reprobate suffer torment and the elect enjoy the glory and presence of the Lord.

From the statements above, which if any, do you take exception to? Hopefully this will help clear things up.

In His Grace,

[quote]Pilgrim said:
Gee, I certainly thought I was reading what you have written in this thread. But perhaps I was actually sleeping.
Tee hee. Yeah I agree with that.

Doulos,


"Soul-sleep" is the erroneous doctrine that between death and the general resurrection, the souls of the dead (both righteous and wicked) are unconscious. The historic and biblical teaching is that our souls remain conscious between death and our resurrection.