The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum The Afterlife

Can anyone elaborate on the relationship between Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, Abraham's Bosom, and Heaven? Tall order, I know. There seems to be a lot of confusion regarding what exactly is the state of the soul before the general resurrection and final judgement, as well as the state of the souls of the righteous prior to Christ's resurrection. Now, my initial thoughts would be as follows:

There is no difference between the state of righteous souls in the afterlife before and after Christ's resurrection. Upon death, the disembodied souls of the wicked go to hell (hades/sheol?) and the disembodied souls of the righteous go to heaven (which I take "Abraham's Bosom" to be an expression for), where they await the general resurrection and final judgement. At the general resurrection the souls of both the wicked and the righteous are re-embodied, and upon judgement, the wicked are cast body and soul into hell (Gehenna/lake of fire?) while the righteous inherit the new earth.

I would agree with all that you wrote with the exception that hell, hades, Gehenna, Abraham's bosom and the Lake of Fire are all the same place, although it may be that the "Lake of Fire" differs only in that it is the permanent place where both the soul's of the reprobate AND wicked angels will be consigned.

In His Grace,

Abraham's Bosom is the same as hell?

Whoops! That's what I get for being too much in a rush and involved in multitasking.

Abraham's bosom and heaven are synonymous is what I should have written.

Thanks for clarifying.

What happened to Paradise ? Jesus said to the thief,you will be in Paradise.

The old testament saints, they were in Paradise till the resurrection,then Heaven right ?

I have more questions then answers, <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/hairout.gif" alt="" /> Will this ever change ?? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rainbow.gif" alt="" />

neicey

Paradise is generally equivalent to heaven which is the temporary residence for departed souls of the saints (aka: believers) until the Judgment.

In His grace,

In this life, no it will never change. Questions are a good thing!


It's all part of renewing your mind! As long as you seek the answers to your questions in God's infallible, immutable Word, God will use your questions to bring you into conformity with His Word!

Why did Jesus say to Mary Magdalene "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father"... if he was just in paradise which is synonymous or "equivalent" with heaven?

I am just curious if you answer this the same way i do.

Excellent question. The tense of the action here (John 20:17) reveals the cutting off of an action that has already begun. In essence, Jesus was saying, “stop hanging on to my physical body now”, or do not think, that by holding me firmly, you can keep me always with you in this present state (Matt. 28:9). Mary, as all Christians, desired to be in an uninterruptible fellowship with Christ. Jesus was telling her that she must wait until He has ascended to the Father (only then would the Holy Spirit come). PLEASE note that Jesus did not object to being touched (remember His words to Thomas). What He was concerned with was Mary’s mistaken idea that the former form of fellowship was going to continue as it was before. What Christ was revealing was that His relationship with her and others would now be changed. The fellowship would continue, but it would be far richer. The fellowship now would be the communion of the ascended Lord in the Spirit with His Church.

To me the idea of a place for dead folks to wait 'till judgement is a human thing. Its like the need for a zero in math: it serves a function, but its really just a place holder. I have always been under the impression that everyone is going to get to heaven at the same time--which isn't outside the realm of possibility for an Eternal God who created time along with everything else. The idea of restricting him to a linear timeline isn't very appealing. (Note I'm not advocating the non-existence of hell just taking a slap at the idea of purgatory-like waiting locations)

Plus, I don't really see anything like that laid out in the NT.

doulos,

Since you reject the historic doctrine what do you believe happens when a person dies; both elect and reprobate? I'd be interested to hear what you believe happens upon death.

Oh, btw... the whole Scripture, not just the NT, does teach the historic doctrine that at death, the soul departs from the body and goes to another "place". The souls of the elect go to heaven where they await the judgment and their glorification where their souls are rejoined to their renewed glorified bodies. The souls of the reprobate go to hell, where they await their judgment and thus they remain in hell forever. There is no "purgatory" nor "limbo" taught in Scripture, however.

In His Grace,

I appreciate candor, especially, when dealing with theological issues. Theres not really any other way to deal with them except drag them out in the light and see if they wither and die.

Let me just say first that I'm going to be happy with what actually does happen because thats the way God set it up and you can be sure he knows more about it. There have been some pretty smart people take a crack and what they think is going to happen but eschatology seems to consist mainly of a great deal of speculation. Prayerful speculation I am sure but I don't actually KNOW whats going to happen and neither does anyone else.

As far as what happens when someone dies, I think I put it in the first post. Right here:

doulos wroteIt mostly stems from the idea that God is Eternal and unchanging. To me that means he is unaffected by the clock. I think time is something he created for us to sort of coddle us along until we, er, grow up? I don't know exactly how to put it but I get the impression that he put the World on a clock a) for our convenience b)to give us a sense that we've really only got so long to make up our minds about Him. Time's not something God really needs.

It wasn't a straight line from there to "Where do folks go when they die?" but eventually the two thoughts collided and the answer was, "Outside of time." *shrug I just couldn't get all the events that were supposed to happen to line up in my head--some have accused me of not having enough room in there--unless, that is, you remove the requirement for a strict linear timeline which, to me, God doesn't have. We have that need so of course there's a place holder for souls to wait around in until the appointed time. I like the idea of them being asleep in the grave until the rapture better than any sort of communal holding tank sort of affair like purgatory, etc.

As for saved and lost status: I'm of the mind that when all the different dead folks show up where ever they're supposed to go that they're ALL going to be there and thats when they get sorted out. There's too much talk in the Bible about sorting sheep from the goats and people and demons getting cast into the lake of fire for there not to be some huge final event where God makes the point that he truly is the God of all creation and not your bass boat or your Beemer. "Every knee shall bow..."[Romans 14:11;Isaiah 45:23]

Considering I go to a church where you could almost get burned as a heretic for buying a Walt Disney flick I don't think its too surprising that I haven't discussed this with a great number of people. The few that I have who had a few thoughts to rub together thought I had a lot of nerve for even considering that the saints would have to appear in front of the judgement seat.

This is a good exercise and I appreciate greatly the opportunity this website provides to discuss these things.

But it's not like Purgatory. Purgatory is not a holding tank until the final judgement. Purgatory is a place where sinners work off their debt and are eventually released to heaven. The orthodox doctrine of heaven and hell conceives of these places as where the disembodied souls of the dead reside until the general resurrection and final judgement, a very different concept than working off your debt! The idea of soul sleep just isn't consistent with scriptural declarations concerning heaven and hell and the soul's departure from the body.

First of about the debt/purgatory thing. I think I said what you said but didn't say as much when I said it. Or at least I tried to.

Second, about the sleeping thing:
1 Thess 4:13-18 (NIV)
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

New Revised Standard, New Living, and probably some others say "those who have died" NIV, KJV, ASV, RSV, NASB, say some version of those who have fallen asleep. The greek seems to indicate Paul is using a euphemism for "Those dead guys" but it seems to me that being dead, to the Christian anyway, is more like taking a nap than anything else.

I'm going with asleep. God's grace is sufficient to keep us out of Purgatory or we're all in a world of hurt.