The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum The Afterlife

doulos,

As CovenantInGrace replied, the Scriptures know of no such thing as "soul sleep". A couple more references should help you see this, e.g.,

Luke 23:43 (ASV) "And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise."

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (ASV) "Being therefore always of good courage, and knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord (for we walk by faith, not by sight); we are of good courage, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord."

And William Hendriksen offers some further evidence that "soul sleep" is a man-made doctrine and counters it with even more proof that when the believer dies, the soul ascends to be in heaven with Christ.

The death of believers is often compared to sleep (Matt. 27:52; John 11:11-18; Acts 7:60; I Cor. 7:39; 15:6, 18; cf. “rest from their labors,” 1 14:18). The expression is based on Old Testament terminology with reference to death (Gen. 47:30; II Sam. 7:12). The comparison of death to sleep is particularly appropriate in implying not only rest from labor also the glorious awakening which believers expect on the other side. This falling asleep does not indicate an intermediate state of unconscious repose (soul-sleep). Though the soul is asleep to the world which it has left (Job 7:9, 10; Is. 63:16; Eccl. 9:6), it is awake with respect to its own world (Luke 16:19-31; 23:43; II Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:21-23; Rev. 7:15-17; 20:4) For other beautiful and comforting words and phrases describing the death of believers see N.T.C. on John 11:11-13.

A fair inference from the present passage is that during the short period which had elapsed since the Thessalonians first heard the Gospel some believers had passed from this earthly scene. It was with reference to them that friends and relatives were deeply disturbed. In fact, they were so alarmed that Paul adds: in order that you do not grieve as do the rest, who have no hope.

William Hendriksen, NTC I and II Thessalonians (Baker: Grand Rapids, 1975) pp. 109, 110.

In His Grace,

My purpose in that regard was to clarify that anything like Purgatory simply is not in view. Purgatory is not a legitimate comparison to the orthodox understanding of the state of departed souls between death and the general resurrection. There is no further debt to be paid by the righteous, and the wicked have an eternal debt which cannot be paid off in order to attain heaven.


I think part of Paul's purpose was indeed to point to the reality of the hope of eternal life for those Christians who have died. However, this is far from establishing that everyone remains in an unconscious state between death and the general resurrection. The story of the rich man and Lazarus, for one example, indicates that we remain conscious in that intervening period: the righteous dead in heavenly bliss and the wicked dead in hellish torments.


We can certainly agree that the Christ's death is sufficient to cover ALL debts, none of which the redeemed will have to pay in some purgatorial state.

CovenantInBlood said:

Right. You said it much better than I did/could and with no confusion.

I'm not sure who brought up the soul-sleep thing but its sort of a wrench in the works isn't it?

CovenantInBlood also said:

I think you've got your finger in the sore here. In this light I am inclined to return to my original--if somewhat maddening--idea that from the POV of the dead person no actual time passes between physical death and general resurrection. To that person they take their last breath, and when they open their eyes they are in the air.

Where's the scriptural warrant to hold to such a view? However, on the contrary there are biblical passages which would mitigate against this notion, such as:

Revelation 6:9-11 (ASV) "And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled [their course]."

The two elements you are wanting to deny are clearly present in this text: 1) The souls of those who had died are conscious and very much aware of their existence, where they are and even communicate with God. 2) These disembodied souls are also conscious of time, for they cried out, "How long . . . etc."

I can't help but ask "Why? are you opposed to the traditional, historical, biblical view on this particular subject? What is it that is bothering you so much that you would adopt a quasi-soul sleep position? Inquiring minds wanna know.

In His Grace,

Quoth Pilgrim:

I try to be very careful when quoting Revelation on anything but it seems to me that these are folks who were martyred not just saints who died of, say, cancer. Most translations say they died For the testimony they had borne, maintained, or held


And here it seems that they are waiting on the rest of their bretheren (and sister-en) who are also to be martyred. Yeah they're talking to the Lord, but it looks like a special group to me.

Pilgrim, I'm not really opposed to the historic view. You wrote something like "I'd really like to know what you think" so I told you the best I could. I think that the text could be combed either way with regard to the consciousness/unconsciousness of souls in general after death so I can't really say that the view you are espousing is any more or less biblical that what I said. I don't think I'd come out and say "You're opposed to a biblical view". At least not in a civil discussion among brothers--which I hope this remains--regarding what could arguably be considered a hair-splitter.

I'm still not sure where the soul sleep thing came in. I think Pilgrim introduced it. I've always thought, from what I've read, that there is an actual bodily resurrection. You know the trump sounds and the dead rise, that sort of thing. I've got seven different versions up here and they all say "sleep" and "we shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye" long about 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ish. It also appears that Paul uses the same word here:
1 Cor 15:51 (NIV) 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—

as opposed to death which he uses here:

1 Cor 15:26 (NIV)The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Here's another good example also from chapter 15:
1 Cor 15:16-18 (NIV) 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.

The same word is used for asleep (dead is different refering to dead bodies not death). I’m thinking there’s death as in “going to hell” death and death as in “dead but getting ready to LIVE”.

doulos,

First..... sorry you took offense to the fact that you ARE rejecting the "traditional, historical, biblical" view and at least leaning far more to the erroneous teaching called "soul sleep". Both can't be right!

Second, on what basis do you justify that those who have been martyred are to be bifurcated from all other believers and thus have this "special" existence of their souls at death? Paul says of ALL believers that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." (2Cor 5:8), which seems to indicate to me that at death the body is put in the grave and the soul returns to God/Christ to await the final Judgment. Again, the Lord Christ told the thief who was crucified next to him, "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Lk 23:43). This thief surely can't be grouped among those who was martyred for his faith.

Lastly, in regard to your understanding of the word "sleep", I already gave you a reasonable answer to that by quoting William Hendriksen's comments from his most excellent commentary on that text in another reply below. But I'll quote it again here for your benefit.

The death of believers is often compared to sleep (Matt. 27:52; John 11:11-18; Acts 7:60; I Cor. 7:39; 15:6, 18; cf. “rest from their labors,” 1 14:18). The expression is based on Old Testament terminology with reference to death (Gen. 47:30; II Sam. 7:12). The comparison of death to sleep is particularly appropriate in implying not only rest from labor also the glorious awakening which believers expect on the other side. This falling asleep does not indicate an intermediate state of unconscious repose (soul-sleep). Though the soul is asleep to the world which it has left (Job 7:9, 10; Is. 63:16; Eccl. 9:6), it is awake with respect to its own world (Luke 16:19-31; 23:43; II Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:21-23; Rev. 7:15-17; 20:4) For other beautiful and comforting words and phrases describing the death of believers see N.T.C. on John 11:11-13.

A fair inference from the present passage is that during the short period which had elapsed since the Thessalonians first heard the Gospel some believers had passed from this earthly scene. It was with reference to them that friends and relatives were deeply disturbed. In fact, they were so alarmed that Paul adds: in order that you do not grieve as do the rest, who have no hope.

William Hendriksen, NTC I and II Thessalonians (Baker: Grand Rapids, 1975) pp. 109, 110.

I would have hoped that this would have sufficed to show you that when the word "sleep" is used in regard to the death of believers, at least, it is synonymous with the word "death"; i.e., that when a believer dies, he/she does not become non-existent, but rather it is a temporary separation of the soul from the body. The body returns to the dust from which it was made, and the soul returns to its Author to await the consummation where the body and soul will once again be united, albeit incorruptible.

In His Grace,

You brought up soul sleep not me. As far as the "bifurcated existence" whachamacallit I merely said thats what it looks like in the passage you quoted. Personally I agree with the passage you just said--to be away from the body is to be present with the Lord. And I think I said something about sleep being the death of believers.

Uh, are you actually reading anything I'm posting? I don't see that much difference in what we are saying.

Gee, I certainly thought I was reading what you have written in this thread. But perhaps I was actually sleeping.

Here is what I believe, which is the doctrine taught historically by the Church:

1. All men when they die experience a separation of the soul from the body.
2. The body returns to its basic elements from which it was created, aka: "dust".
3. The soul of the unregenerate (reprobate) go to hell to await final Judgment.
4. The soul of the regenerate (elect) go to heaven to await their final vindication and glorification where they will be reunited with a new body.
5. In either case, the soul is fully conscious of its surroundings; the reprobate suffer torment and the elect enjoy the glory and presence of the Lord.

From the statements above, which if any, do you take exception to? Hopefully this will help clear things up.

In His Grace,

[quote]Pilgrim said:
Gee, I certainly thought I was reading what you have written in this thread. But perhaps I was actually sleeping.
Tee hee. Yeah I agree with that.

Doulos,


"Soul-sleep" is the erroneous doctrine that between death and the general resurrection, the souls of the dead (both righteous and wicked) are unconscious. The historic and biblical teaching is that our souls remain conscious between death and our resurrection.