The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Views on Hell

It is not denied, that if it were clear beyond question from Bible teaching elsewhere that the doom of the lost will be everlasting torment, it would be quite possible to understand ‘death’, ‘destruction’ and the like, as meaning a wretched and ruined existence. (The Righteous Judge, p. 19)

gnarley said:
Nope--You're wrong again

...he does appeal to 1 Pet 3:19-20 saying that Christ preached to the spirits in prison

Pilgrim said:
Didn't I read somewhere that John Stott recanted his heretical position and returned to the Traditional (aka: biblical) view, perhaps after reading J.I. Packer's criticism? Maybe it is simply wishful thinking on my part. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/giggle.gif" alt="" />

18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

SemperReformanda said:
The one site I've seen that mentions Stott recanting his heretical view on hell now no longer says he's recanted of it.

speratus said:
After burial, Christ, true God and true man, descended into hell, conquered the devil, and proclaimed His victory to the damned spirits in prison as part of their punishment.

I don't understand how Berkhof and the others can deny Christ's physical descent into hell. In the Apostle's Creed, we confess, "Jesus Christ... was crucified, dead, and buried: he descended into hell." Does the Reformed Church reject the Apostle's Creed?

1. I believe in God The Father Almighty.

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord;

3. Who was born by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary;

4. Was crucified under Pontius Pilate and was buried;

5. The third day he rose from the dead;

6. He ascended into heaven; and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

8. And in the Holy Ghost;

9. The Holy Church;

10. The forgiveness of sins;

11. The resurrection of the body (flesh).

Walter A. Elwell, Evangelical Dictionary of Theology

1. I believe in God The Father Almighty [Maker of heaven and earth].

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord;

3.Who was [conceived] by the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary;

4. [Suffered] under Pontius Pilate, was crucified [dead], and buried [He descended into Hell (Hades)].

5. The third day he rose from the dead;

6. He ascended into heaven; and sitteth on the right hand of [God] the Father [Almighty];

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

8. [I Believe] in the Holy Ghost;

9. The Holy [Catholic] Church [The communion of saints];

10. The forgiveness of sins;

11. The resurrection of the body (flesh);

12. [And the life everlasting].

Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (COC)

Calvin wrote:

".... there is nothing strange in its being said that he descended to hell, seeing he endured the death which is inflicted on the wicked by an angry God. It is frivolous and ridiculous to object that in this way the order is perverted, it being absurd that an event which preceded burial should be placed after it. But after explaining what Christ endured in the sight of man, the Creed appropriately adds the invisible and incomprehensible judgement which he endured before God, to teach us that not only was the body of Christ given up as the price of redemption, but that there was a greater and more excellent price - that he bore in his soul the tortures of condemned and ruined man."

But we must seek a surer explanation, apart from the Creed, of Christ’s descent into hell. The explanation given to us in God’s Word is not only holy and pious, but also full of wonderful consolation. If Christ had died only a bodily death, it would have been ineffectual. No — it was expedient at the same time for him to undergo the severity of God’s vengeance, to appease his wrath and satisfy his just judgment. For this reason, he must also grapple hand to hand with the armies of hell and the dread of everlasting death.

thredj said:

I've never really understood this verse. Could someone elaborate? Thanks

...and it certainly contradicts Jesus' words to the thief on the cross, that they would be together in Paradise that same day.

John_C said:
All the churches I'm familiar with agrees with Pilgrim's assessment. I even know a few churches that remove the phrase he descended into hell from the creed when citing it in public worship.

Is the purpose of a Creed to testify to the truth of scripture against those who would deny that truth or to paper over differences?

2 Tim 3:16-17 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.

The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly (1.9).

FOC, Epitome, Rule and Norm

] 1. We believe, teach, and confess that the sole rule and standard according to which all dogmas together with [all] teachers should be estimated and judged are the prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and of the New Testament alone, as it is written Ps. 119, 105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1, 8.

2] Other writings, however, of ancient or modern teachers, whatever name they bear, must not be regarded as equal to the Holy Scriptures, but all of them together be subjected to them, and should not be received otherwise or further than as witnesses, [which are to show] in what manner after the time of the apostles, and at what places, this [pure] doctrine of the prophets and apostles was preserved.

3] 2. And because directly after the times of the apostles, and even while they were still living, false teachers and heretics arose, and symbols, i. e., brief, succinct [categorical] confessions, were composed against them in the early Church, which were regarded as the unanimous, universal Christian faith and confession of the orthodox and true Church, namely, the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, we pledge ourselves to them, and hereby reject all heresies and dogmas which, contrary to them, have been introduced into the Church of God.

FOC, SD, Christ's Descent into Hell

And since even in the ancient Christian teachers of the Church, as well as in some among our teachers, dissimilar explanations of the article concerning the descent of Christ to hell are found, we abide in like manner by the simplicity of our Christian faith [comprised in the Creed], to which Dr. Luther in his sermon, which was delivered in the castle at Torgau in the year 1533, concerning the descent of Christ to hell, has pointed us, where we confess: I believe in the Lord Christ, God's Son, our Lord, dead, buried, and descended into hell. For in this [Confession] the burial and descent of Christ to hell are distinguished as different articles; 2] and we simply believe that the entire person, God and man, after the burial descended into hell, conquered the devil, destroyed the power of hell, and took from the devil all his might. 3] We should not, however, trouble ourselves with high and acute thoughts as to how this occurred; for with our reason and our five senses this article can be comprehended as little as the preceding one, how Christ is placed at the right hand of the almighty power and majesty of God; but we are simply to believe it and adhere to the Word [in such mysteries of faith]. Thus we retain the substance [sound doctrine] and [true] consolation that neither hell nor the devil can take captive or injure us and all who believe in Christ.

speratus writes,

Now, when Calvin and other Reformers proposed a new interpretation of the Creed that retained the form of the Creed but denied its substance (that Christ actually did descend into hell), the Concordists could have papered over the difference (as Calvin did) in order to maintain a false sense of unity. Instead the Concordists publicly refuted this misinterpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 in a binding confession.

While I completely agree with the quoted passage from the WCF

I would add that Creeds perform the necessary function of refuting errors.

Instead the Concordists publicly refuted this misinterpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 in a binding confession.

FOC, SD, Christ's Descent into Hell

And since even in the ancient Christian teachers of the Church, as well as in some among our teachers, dissimilar explanations of the article concerning the descent of Christ to hell are found, we abide in like manner by the simplicity of our Christian faith [comprised in the Creed], to which Dr. Luther in his sermon, which was delivered in the castle at Torgau in the year 1533, concerning the descent of Christ to hell, has pointed us, where we confess: I believe in the Lord Christ, God's Son, our Lord, dead, buried, and descended into hell. For in this [Confession] the burial and descent of Christ to hell are distinguished as different articles; 2] and we simply believe that the entire person, God and man, after the burial descended into hell, conquered the devil, destroyed the power of hell, and took from the devil all his might…..

The Timing of Christ's Descent to Hell
in Relation to the Apostles' Creed by Kenneth L. Wenzel

Those who rationalize the hypostatic union of Christ often stray from the Bible's simple statements. Quenstedt follows the antirationalism of the hypostatic union as any Bible reader should, and therefore he writes this for us:

"Christ, the God-man, and therefore His entire person (and hence not only according to His soul, or only according to His body), after the reunion of soul and body, descended to the very place of the damned, and to the devils and the damned manifested Himself as conqueror. For the descent, since it is a personal action, cannot be ascribed otherwise than to the entire person of the God man. And, as in the Apostles' Creed it is said of the entire God man that He suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried, so also it is said of the same that He descended into hell." The descent is, very naturally, predicated of Christ, the God man, i.e., it is taught that Christ, the God-man, was for a time in hell; but the descent itself is predicated only of the human nature of Christ. "Christ descended into hell, not according to His divine nature; for, according to this, He was in hell before, filling all things through His dominion… Therefore, Christ descended, according to His human nature. For the predications qanatwqei\j sarki/ and zw|opoihqeij, belong to the human nature alone. "...

Verse 19, as just noted, also has something to say for our understanding of the timing in the Apostles' Creed. The verse begins with e0nw{| to tell us that Jesus descended in His glorified state. It is a dative of circumstance. poreuqei/j is an aorist participle pointing out that Jesus really completed His act of going. Where did He go? fulakh~| means "prison," and it is another word for hell as noted in Matthew 5:25 and II Peter 2:4&5. It is also a very real place and not as many of the Reformed teach. They claim that Christ's descensus is only to be taken in a figurative sense and time it as part of His humiliation. This is still their understanding as many others do with the timing of the descensus in the Apostles' Creed. Rufinus (ca. 390 A.D.) timed the descensus of the Apostles' Creed in apposition to the burial. He talks as if the descensus is an unnecessary redundancy in the formula.
What did Jesus do in hell? He went to khrussei/n or to proclaim or to herald. Colossians 2:15 clearly describes how Jesus preached. He did not go to preach the Gospel and give the spirits' another chance to be saved as some interpret (Origen, Marcion). Rather, Jesus went to publicly shame hell. The Lord triumphed over them in the ancient manner. He paraded the defeated enemies of God and man before Himself. Paul's comments on Christ's descensus are important. He talks about a time of triumph and glory and not one of suffering and pain. Paul, then, as also Peter, by inspiration directs us to time Christ's descent to hell with the Lord's exaltation when we confess the Apostles' Creed.
Before summarizing the conclusions of the first section, it was stated above that more should be said on the timing of the vivificatio of the Savior. When was Jesus made alive in His glory to descend is the question. The Bible points out that Jesus' spirit at the time of His death went into the hands of His Father (Lk. 23:46). It also declares that on the same day of His death Jesus was in paradise (Lk. 23:43). In addition, we have every reason to claim that Jesus lay in the grave for the full time He predicted (Mt. 12:40, 26:61, 27:40&63; Mark 8:31; Jn 2:19&20). Finally, there is Peter's record that makes it clear that Jesus was vivified and descended for a very short time before he appeared to man. Does this mean then, that we should change the Apostles' Creed to proclaim "on the third day He arose again from the dead; He descended into hell?" Indeed, there is no need for such a radical change. But we should remember that the term "resurrection" is used either restrictedly or comprehensively. The Apostles' Creed uses the latter. Quenstedt comments to this point as he writes:

The moment of time of the descent is according to I Peter 3:19, the time that intervened between the quickening and the resurrection of Christ, properly so called. To the assertion, that the descent preceded the resurrection, and therefore did not succeed the vivifying, Holl, (668) replies: "A distinction must be made between an outward and an inner resurrection. The former is the going forth from the sepulchre, and the outward appearance to men, and is described in the Apostles' Creed; the latter is the quickening itself."

What did Jesus do in hell? He went to khrussei/n or to proclaim or to herald. Colossians 2:15 clearly describes how Jesus preached. He did not go to preach the Gospel and give the spirits' another chance to be saved as some interpret (Origen, Marcion).

Before summarizing the conclusions of the first section, it was stated above that more should be said on the timing of the vivificatio of the Savior. When was Jesus made alive in His glory to descend is the question. The Bible points out that Jesus' spirit at the time of His death went into the hands of His Father (Lk. 23:46). It also declares that on the same day of His death Jesus was in paradise (Lk. 23:43). In addition, we have every reason to claim that Jesus lay in the grave for the full time He predicted (Mt. 12:40, 26:61, 27:40&63; Mark 8:31; Jn 2:19&20). Finally, there is Peter's record that makes it clear that Jesus was vivified and descended for a very short time before he appeared to man.

Mark 16:8-10 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid. Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

From Luke 16 we see that Sheol had two compartments which were separated by a great gulf.

J_Edwards said:

The preacher here is very clear as in 2 Peter 2:5 Noah is described as “a preacher of righteousness.” Furthermore, as 1 Peter 4:4-6 reveals the “dead” to whom the gospel was preached were not yet dead when it was preached unto them, since part of the preaching was “that they might be judged according to men in the flesh.” This could only take place during their life on earth. As Berkhof comments, “the common Protestant interpretation of this passage is that the Spirit of Christ preached through Noah to the disobedient that lived before the flood, who were spirits in prison when Peter wrote, and therefore could be distinguished as thus.”

Kretzmann's Popular Commentary of the Bible For the same reason the apostle adds: For to this end was the Gospel preached also to them that are (now) dead, that they might be judged in the flesh indeed after the manner of men, but might live in the spirit after the manner of God. This statement has no connection with the fact given in chap. 3, 19, but belongs into this connection. To certain people that are now dead the Gospel was preached during their life, they became partakers of its wonderful blessings, in order that they, although subject to the general curse of death according to their mortal body, yet might live in the spirit, so far as their soul was concerned, and that after the manner of God, that is, in a spiritual, divine, glorified existence, until the day when God would reunite their bodies with their souls. Thus the purpose of the preaching of the Gospel was realized in the case of those that died in the Lord. The connection of thought, then, is this: While death does not remove the blasphemer from the final Judgment and condemnation, it confirms the hope of the Christians that their souls, which are safe in the hands of God, will be reunited with their bodies on the last day and enjoy everlasting salvation and glory in the presence of God.

J EdwardsSince the rest of what Wenzel wrote depends on his summary may I just ask, "Where in the Scripture does it say that Christ descended for only a short time?" Indeed, does not the Scripture emphatically state;

Now if Jesus just finished parading through Hell with His victory procession, Mary could not have been first!

Your earlier objections were quite good but now you seem to grasping at straws. You're putting Mary in the same class as the dead and saying that Christ can not accomplish His descent into hell in a brief timeframe?