True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Heres what I posted when Pilgrim asked me essentially the same question(Salvation by Doctrine or something like that):
Quote
The bare minimum, to me, is that they need to know enough to have a good grip on what a sinner is, know that they are one, and have enough on the ball to deduce or admit that they can't do a thing about it without help. They also need to know what Christ has done and who he is and BELIEVE it. At that point if they've got any sense at all and they're under conviction they should know that they need to fall on their face before God and ask for forgivness and Salvation.
This is what goes on in a person AFTER the Holy Spirit starts working on them--no Holy Spirit, no salvation. Some would put Election before Holy Spirit. *Shrug I'm not sure yet. I know it happened to me and I'm really happy about it considering the alternative.
Josh "...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
If you believe faith itself is a gift from God (and you certainly appear to: "This is what goes on in a person AFTER the Holy Spirit starts working on them") then I believe you ought to look in the Reformed (Baptist or Presbyterian) direction. The chief difference there is over whether baptism is for believers only (Baptist) or believers and children of believers (Presbyterian). Most Reformed Baptists subscribe to Covenant theology rather than dispensationalism, but understand certain aspects of Covenant theology differently.
To oversimplify greatly: Election just means that God chooses to regenerate or save some and passes over others. Election is His soveriegn choice before creation to redeem some out of the mass of undeserving humanity for His own glory. "Whosoever will may come" and none who "seek him" will He "cast out;" but unless they are elected to salvation they will not "come" nor "seek him" because they are totally depraved. God simply leaves them in that condition. That state you may call reprobation. One could go into much greater depth and not all Reformed would agree with everything that I said, but that is the basic gist.
I guess this is a sticky spot for me. The question remains: Does God call everyone knowing that some will and some won't be saved or does the Holy Spirit only work on the elect because he knows the other's won't repent no matter what. To me this is important from the stand point of Evangelism and you can probably figure out the reason.
Josh "...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
Romans 8-9, John 6, and Ephesians 1 would be good places to start studying.
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
doulos said: I guess this is a sticky spot for me. The question remains: Does God call everyone knowing that some will and some won't be saved or does the Holy Spirit only work on the elect because he knows the other's won't repent no matter what. To me this is important from the stand point of Evangelism and you can probably figure out the reason.
doulos,
In Scripture, there is the "general call" and the "effectual call". The "general call" is that which WE are responsible for; i.e., to proclaim that there is salvation, remission of sins and reconciliation with God, to ALL who will repent and believe upon Christ. Since it is not given to man to know who the elect are and since all are sinners in need of reconciliation, etc., then there is no basis to discriminate who should be told the "good news". The "effectual call" is that which is of the Holy Spirit Who works in and through the proclamation of the biblical gospel and Who regenerates the soul, making it possible for a sinner to heed what is said and to repent and believe. This "effectual call" is only given by God's sovereign mercy and grace to the elect; those who He has predestinated from eternity.
Thus, in regard to evangelism, the Gospel is to be broadcast throughout the world indiscriminately. And this is the confidence we have, that all those who have been elected to salvation in Christ will be infallibly and effectually called and brought to that great salvation. One of the best books ever written on this subject is J.I. Packer's Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God. It is still in print, easy reading and inexpensive too..... which is a real plus. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
You might also find it beneficial to read this short article by Dr. Morton Smith here: Reformed Evangelism.
John 6:64,65 (NIV) 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”
This makes me very sad SR. I'm going to have to think on it some more.
Josh "...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
What about folks who are convicted but say no and continue to say no? It seems that there is a contradiction here:
Quote
from Reformed EvangelismB. The Universal Offer of the Gospel This death is of such infinite value and dignity because the person who submitted to it was not only really man and perfectly holy, but also the only begotten of God, of the same eternal and infinite essence with the Father and the Holy Spirit, which qualifications were necessary to constitute him as saviour for us; and, moreover, because it was attended with the sense of the wrath and curse of God due to us for sin. Moreover, the promise of the Gospel is that whosoever believes in Christ crucified shall not perish, but have eternal life. This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinctions, to whom God out of His good pleasure sends the Gospel. And, whereas many who are called by the Gospel do not repent nor believe in Christ, but perish in unbelief, this is not owing to any defect or insufficiency in the sacrifice offered by Christ upon the cross, but wholly to be imputed to themselves. But as many as truly believe, and are delivered and saved from sin and destruction through the death of Christ, are indebted for this benefit solely to the grace of God given them in Christ from everlasting, and not to any merit of their own. (II, 4,5,6,7).
Josh "...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
doulos said: What about folks who are convicted but say no and continue to say no? It seems that there is a contradiction here:
What is the alleged contradiction you are having problems with? No one is truly convicted of the Holy Spirit who doesn't also repent and believe. There are those who appear to have been convicted, or who profess to have been convicted but have not been so. True conviction is only possible when the Holy Spirit regenerates them; i.e., they have been "born again". For all men by nature are insensitive of, in total opposition to, and incapable of responding anything spiritual for they are spiritually dead. (cf. Matt 13:3f; Acts 13:48; Eph 2:3-7; et al) The inward (effectual) call produces the true conviction which infallibly leads to repentance.
2 Corinthians 7:9-10 (ASV) "I now rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye were made sorry unto repentance; for ye were made sorry after a godly sort, that ye might suffer loss by us in nothing. For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation, [a repentance] which bringeth no regret: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."
The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter X Of Effectual Calling
I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,[1] by his Word and Spirit,[2] out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ;[3] enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God,[4] taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh;[5] renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good,[6] and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:[7] yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.[8]
1. Acts 13:48; Rom. 4:28, 30; 11:7; Eph. 1:5, 11; II Tim. 1:9-10 2. II Thess. 2:13-14; James 1:18; II Cor. 3:3, 6; I Cor. 2:12 3. II Tim. 1:9-10; I Peter 2:9; Rom 8:2; Eph. 2:1-10
4. Acts 26:18; I Cor. 2:10, 12; Eph. 1:17-18; II Cor. 4:6 5. Ezek. 36:26 6. Ezek. 11:19; 36:27; Deut. 30:6; John 3:5; Titus 3:5; I Peter 1:23 7. John 6:44-45; Acts 16:14 8. Psa. 110:3; John 6:37; Matt. 11:28; Rev. 22:17; Rom. 6:16-18; Eph. 2:8; Phil 1:29
II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,[9] who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,[10] he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.[11]
9. II Tim. 1:9; Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 9:11 10. I Cor. 2:14; Rom. 8:7-9; Titus 3:4-5 11. John 6:37; Ezek. 36:27; I John 3:9; 5:1
III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit,[12] who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth:[13] so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.[14]
12. Gen. 17:7; Luke 1:15; 18:15-16; Acts 2:39; John 3:3, 5; I John 5:12 13. John 3:8 14. John 16:7-8; I John 5:12; Acts 4:12
IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word,[15] and may have some common operations of the Spirit,[16] yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:[17] much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever,[17] be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.[18] And, to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.[19]
15. Matt. 13:14-15; 22:14; Acts 13:48; 28:24 16. Matt. 7:22; 13:20, 21; Heb. 6:4-5 17. John 6:37, 64-66; 8:44; 13:18; cf. 17:12 18. Acts 4:12; I John 4:2-3; II John 1:9; John 4:22; 14:6; 17:3; Eph. 2:12-13; Rom. 10:13-17 19. II John 1:9-12; I Cor. 16:22; Gal. 1:6-8
From: The MacArthur New Testament Commentary ch. 35--Romans 8:29b Much contemporary evangelism gives the impression that salvation is predicated on a person’s decision for Christ. But we are not Christians first of all because of what we decided about Christ but because of what God decided about us before the foundation of the world. We were able to choose Him only because He had first chosen us, “according to the kind intention of His will.” Paul expresses the same truth a few verses later when he says, “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him” (Eph. 1:7-9, emphasis added). He then says that “we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will” (v. 11).
and this helped too...
Quote
From: The MacArthur New Testament Commentary ch. 35--Romans 8:30a Scripture teaches many truths that seem paradoxical and contradictory. It teaches plainly that God is one, but just as plainly that there are three persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—in the single Godhead. With equal unambiguity the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully man. Our finite minds cannot reconcile such seemingly irreconcilable truths, yet they are foundational truths of God’s Word.
If a person goes to hell, it is because He rejects God and His way of salvation. “He who believes in Him [Christ] is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18). As John has declared earlier in his gospel, believers are saved and made children of God “not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:13). But he makes no corresponding statement in regard to unbelievers, nor does any other part of Scripture. Unbelievers are condemned by their own unbelief, not by God’s predestination.
Peter makes plain that God does not desire “for any to perish but for all to come to repentance” (2 Pet. 3:9). Paul declares with equal clarity: “God our Savior … desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4). Every believer is indebted solely to God’s grace for his eternal salvation, but every unbeliever is himself solely responsible for his eternal damnation.
God does not choose believers for salvation on the basis of who they are or of what they have done but on the basis of His sovereign grace. For His own reasons alone, God chose Jacob above Esau (Rom. 9:13). For His own reasons alone, He chose Israel to be His covenant people (Deut. 7:7-8).
We cannot understand God’s choosing us for salvation but can only thank and glorify Him for “His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved” (Eph. 1:6). We can only believe and be forever grateful that we were called “by the grace of Christ” (Gal. 1:6) and that “the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29).
Honestly I can't say I've ever been exposed to this stuff--at least not in the stiff undiluted form. Most folks I've talked to have had an out on predestination/foreknowledge and election--or they just flat preached around it. It IS like a draught of cool water.
Josh "...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
Well thats a good start. Man is made right before God because God said he was then did what was necessary to see it done. Somehow that makes it more magnificent that it was before. Salvation that is--I never could buy into that seeker thing. I knew that man wasn't even capable of turning to God on his own. (I think I've got a good handle on the depravity thing) I couldn't really put it into words. Great thread SR and thanks.
Josh "...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/pilgrim/pil_sig2.gif)
![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/pencil.gif)