The Highway Forums General Discussion Open Forum Are guns OK?

Unlike illegal drugs and gambling, guns are legal and have legitimate uses (hunting, target, et. al.).<br>Who defines a legitimate use? Why is target shooting a more legitimate use than playing craps?<br>Also, soon illegal drugs WILL be legal, and gambling is becoming legal in more and more places. At the same time guns are becoming more and more restricted. <br><br>Again, is it not the depraved human nature that is the problem? People with these dispositions would naturally be drawn towards Casinos. <br>And that begs the question, wouldn't people with depraved natures be drawn to guns, as we see daily with gang related violence? And if we say don't let a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch (i.e. don't let those who abuse guns ruin it for us law abiding weapon owners), the same argument can be given for drugs and casinos.<br><br>Steve<br><br><br>

Well li0scc0 I guess God's Word must be wrong then. No one needs to be saved. After all, our problem is not in ourselves it is with the THINGS (guns, gambling, drugs) that TEMPT us. We are not responsible for ourselves. We are to blame temptation. TEMPTATION is the root of our sin and not the human nature itself?<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]And that begs the question, wouldn't people with depraved natures be drawn to guns, as we see daily with gang related violence?</font><hr></blockquote><p> Yes, I see your point, but people with depraved natures are also drawn to:<br><br><ul>1. Cars, so let us do away with motor vehicles because they may steal them.<br>2. Misusing Gasoline, so let us do away with it.<br>3. Gang colors, Bandannas, and leather jackets, so let us do away with clothing.<br>4. Cussing, so let us do away with all human language.<br>5. Abuse of the body, so let us do away with it as well.[/LIST] li0scc0, once again the problem is not with THINGS, but with the human nature. Legalism is not the answer.

Yes, I see your point, but people with depraved natures are also drawn to:<br>1. Cars, so let us do away with motor vehicles because they may steal them.<br>2. Misusing Gasoline, so let us do away with it.<br>3. Gang colors, Bandannas, and leather jackets, so let us do away with clothing.<br>4. Cussing, so let us do away with all human language.<br>5. Abuse of the body, so let us do away with it as well.<br><br>Bingo! You hit it on the head. You took the argument against drugs, casinos, etc. to its logical conclusion.<br>So, I will ask again. Why are drugs and casinos illegal? Why is prostitution illegal? <br><br>Well li0scc0 I guess God's Word must be wrong then. No one needs to be saved. After all, our problem is not in ourselves it is with the THINGS (guns, gambling, drugs) that TEMPT us. TEMPTATION is the root of our sin and not the human nature itself?<br>That is the liberal argument perfectly stated! Thus, why are those of us who are Christians (people who understand that the issue is with the depraved nature not the temptation itself), against the legalization of prostitution, drugs, etc? If they understand it is the NATURE that must be changed, not the superficial removal of the temptation, then what is the concern? <br><br>We can argue pragmatically with statistics showing that once casinos go up in an area crime increases greatly, child abondonment cases go through the roof, divorce rates skyrocket, etc. And those of us in favor of guns can argue that when concealed weapons laws are passed certain crimes decrease. But statistics aren't right or wrong, are they? <br><br>Steve<br><br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Yes, I see your point, but people with depraved natures are also drawn to:<br>1. Cars, so let us do away with motor vehicles because they may steal them.<br>2. Misusing Gasoline, so let us do away with it.<br>3. Gang colors, Bandannas, and leather jackets, so let us do away with clothing.<br>4. Cussing, so let us do away with all human language.<br>5. Abuse of the body, so let us do away with it as well.<br><br>Bingo! You hit it on the head. You took the argument against drugs, casinos, etc. to its logical conclusion.</font><hr></blockquote><p> No, this is the logical conclusion of your position that GUNS kill and NOT PEOPLE which you are attempting to make a univocal argument with other things (casinos and drugs), which are equivocal. Remember you said[color:blue] I must say I am a bit uncomfortable saying "guns don't kill people, people do</font color=blue> and that is what we are debating. Either guns kill people or they don't? Yes or No? Is the problem with the human nature or with the tool? When the District Attorney charges someone with murder I have never read: Mr Colt .357 you are indited for 3 counts of murder with the intention to deprive someone else of their life! How many guns are locked up accused of murder?<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Well li0scc0 I guess God's Word must be wrong then. No one needs to be saved. After all, our problem is not in ourselves it is with the THINGS (guns, gambling, drugs) that TEMPT us. TEMPTATION is the root of our sin and not the human nature itself?</font><hr></blockquote><p> As I have already stated I am against illegal drugs and even Casinos, but not guns. Your insinuation otherwise is unwarranted. Your equivocal argument with guns comparing them to drugs and casinos is also contradictory. IMHO I see Scriptural arguments against gambling (i.e. have no other gods, et. al.) and illegal drugs (i.e. your body is temple of the Holy Spirit, et. al.), but not guns. Thus, to do away with Illegal Drugs and Casinos would be Biblical. Who makes the distinction--God!

You must have misread my earlier posts if you think "my position" is that guns kill people! WHAT I AM SAYING is that when we say "guns don't kill people, people do" to a liberal who is intelligent, he will pounce upon that and say "well, drugs don't kill people, people who abuse drugs do" and thus use the SAME argument for the legalization of cocaine, marijuana, etc. So those of us WHO USE THAT ARGUMENT must be able to understand the counterattacks. Sadly, few do! They blindly say the phrase without understanding that precisely the same logic can be applied elsewhere. <br><br>But the difference is in the presupposition, isn't it? Some things are inherently bad....and why are they bad? Because the Bible either directly or indirectly says so! Without the Bible to tell us what is bad, we have the whim of the majority telling us good and bad. So, OF COURSE I was using equivocation!!!! But without the Word of God, they ARE equivocal! Drugs, prostitution, casinos, and guns CAN NOT be considered good or bad without the Word of God! <br><br>So, for us to use a purely secular argument FOR guns, we must understand that the exact same argument can be given for the legalization of drugs, prostitution, and casinos. We eventually have to get into "good"/"bad", "right"/"wrong". And once we do that, we can't appeal to common sense, because common sense frankly doesn't exist. Common sense tells some people that murdering babies is OK, while other people's common sense says that selling crack on the streets is OK because it pays better than McDonald's. No, common sense is NOT the answer, the answer is the inerrant Word of God. <br><br>Steve<br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]You must have misread my earlier posts if you think "my position" is that guns kill people! WHAT I AM SAYING is that when we say "guns don't kill people, people do" to a liberal who is intelligent, </font><hr></blockquote><p> Sorry, if I mis-interpreted what you posted: “[color:blue]I must say I am a bit uncomfortable saying "guns don't kill people, people do”..</font color=blue> Whether this argument is made to a liberal or whoever, the TRUTH is still the TRUTH, [color:red] “guns don't kill people, people do"</font color=red>. The truth does not change per your audience, even when they take it out of its context and attempt equivocal arguments from it.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]But the difference is in the presupposition, isn't it? Some things are inherently bad....and why are they bad? Because the Bible either directly or indirectly says so! </font><hr></blockquote><p> Sometimes it is presupposition and sometimes it is lack of proper logic.. Things that are considered bad are not only considered bad "just" because the Bible says they are (though for the Christian this is our ultimate standard).. we have laws and such that we are to obey.., traffic laws, et. al.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]So, OF COURSE I was using equivocation!!!! But without the Word of God, they ARE equivocal! Drugs, prostitution, casinos, and guns CAN NOT be considered good or bad without the Word of God! </font><hr></blockquote><p> The problem was that you were attempting to make equivocal arguments thinking, or at least suggesting, they were univocal! Even your posts revealed that there were differences in Guns vs. Casinos and Drugs, and yet you attempted an univocal argument using them in your very FIRST post. For some even common sense would tell us guns, drugs, and casinos differ in their properties, and cause and effect.. et. al. Even some politicians discern the differences. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/bravo.gif" alt="bravo" title="bravo[/img]<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]So, for us to use a purely secular argument FOR guns, we must understand that the exact same argument can be given for the legalization of drugs, prostitution, and casinos.</font><hr></blockquote><p> Knowing Wes, as I somewhat do, I am sure he was not suggesting that was his only argument ..it was just a quick way of making an accurate point. The Wes I know will and did go further into detail when asked. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/igiveup.gif" alt="igiveup" title="igiveup[/img]

we have laws and such that we are to obey<br>Abortion is legal which does not mean that it is good.<br><br>How can common sense guide us to good and bad, when common sense differs not only among people within a society, but between societies, as well as between generations? I'm sorry, but common sense is anything but common. <br><br>And my initial post was not replying to Wes per se...it was to the argument in general. Wesley is one smart dude, and I'm sure he can back up the statement with substance. <br><br>Steve

First, you assert that I merely said:

we have laws and such that we are to obey

and responded, [color:red]Abortion is legal which does not mean that it is good.. But the QUOTE above is NOT all I said was it? The whole quote went:

[color:blue]Things that are considered bad are not only considered bad "just" because the Bible says they are (though for the Christian this is our ultimate standard).. we have laws and such that we are to obey.., traffic laws, et. al.

li0scc0, you kind of left ALLOT out did you not? Please keep things IN CONTEXT! You are digressing from your earlier errors of equivocation to mis-representation!

Second, you assert:

How can common sense guide us to good and bad, when common sense differs not only among people within a society, but between societies, as well as between generations? I'm sorry, but common sense is anything but common.

But is that what I said? NO, again!

[color:blue]For some even common sense would tell us guns, drugs, and casinos differ in their properties, and cause and effect.. et. al.

You of course are right! SOME would assert an argument against [color:red]guns don't kill people, people do and think they had common sense, when we both know that all they had was a biased equivocal arguments. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/heavy.gif" alt="heavy" title="heavy[/img]

This is my final post to you li0scc0 on this subject.

Guns are ok, but archery is great! Watch out turkeys, spring hunting season is almost here!

If it came down to guns or fly rods -- that would be a hard one. I have a concealed weapon permit, but usually I only use it to pack a fly rod. The fish never suspect a thing.

Guns are a hobby for many people, including myself. I would be disappointed with excessive government restrictions, but it is important to respect the decisions of our leaders. Our responsibility is to pray for our leaders, who have no authority apart from the decree of God.

Alan

Archery is great but when it comes to self-defense, I do believe that I would rather have a gun tucked away under my pillow or in my purse than try to conceal a bow. Don't you agree? Sort of hard to conceal a bow or to draw one quickly should someone break in during the night. Could be easier to beat the guy over the head with the bow than to draw it in a surprise attack.

<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/cheers2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

Dave.

I really like the .40 and the 9mm also for target shooting. But I would have to stick with the .44 mag or 12 gauge for home defense. If I shoot at "someone" and not "something" I want to make sure they stay down..... in a very repentent way of course.

Dave.

Wes,

When guns are outlawed only Hillary is going to have guns. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scared.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/takethat.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/uhoh.gif" alt="" />

Denny

Romans 3:22-24

12 gauge is great for home defense. The racking of a round is very illuminating to a would be intruder. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/evilgrin.gif" alt="" />

With the way walls are made today, the 44 (w/ full loads) has a little too much over-penetration for my comfort. Now I did once own a 2-1/2 44 mag which was magnaported and loaded with only 44 special rounds--which seemed to be a very good load. It was still too heavy for everyday carry though.

Denny,

I didn't say guns should be outlawed. I said, "I disagree with those political views which want to eliminate all guns. Guns don't kill people, people do."

If Hillary was in control what do you think she'd do with guns?


Wes