<center>[color:blue]This post was moved from the "Spurgeon's Calvinism" topic. It was</font color=blue></center><br><br>Thanks for the links!<br><br>By the way, I almost went to a Calvary Chapel, but I decided against it when someone described the denomination (I know they don't like to call it that!) very "showy" in their worship. Is this true? They said that the service is like entertainment with lights, mood music, etc. I know it grew out of the Jesus People movement. Also, I have heard they have "afterglow" services where they allow speaking in tongues and other charismatic things.
Last edited by Pilgrim; Sat May 10, 20033:06 PM.
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]<br>By the way, I almost went to a Calvary Chapel, but I decided against it when someone described the denomination (I know they don't like to call it that!) very "showy" in their worship. Is this true? They said that the service is like entertainment with lights, mood music, etc. I know it grew out of the Jesus People movement. Also, I have heard they have "afterglow" services where they allow speaking in tongues and other charismatic things. </font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>I guess you can describe their worship as "Showy". Basically they play the popular modern types of music, with watered down theology and create the atmosphere to incite emotionalism. To their fairness, "once in a while" they did play some music with Ok theology. Although, the majority is mood music, especially right before and during the "ALTER CALL". Obviously they are trying to put a "Seeker-friendly" atmosphere [as if natural Man actually Seeks God]. Because of the style of their services, they attract people like bees to honey. The one I had gone to for about a month had at least 5000 members. A strange thing about them is that they are a "Denomination", but call themselves "non-denominational". It's kind of funny to me. <br>Also, while I was there they took some cheap shots at "TULIP" from the pulpit. They like to think of themselves as "In the middle-position" between Arminianism/Calvinism, as if such a position exists [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/img]. In reality they are 4 points arminians who believe in eternal security. Regarding the "Afterglow" services, I did hear rumors of a "Special room" where people could go there and speak in tongues,etc. I did not see this personally, but my friend, who also attended there for a little while, told me about it. He called it the "heresy" room. If I could summarize the chapel worship, I would say it's " Finneyism in Disguise". Some may think that's harsh, but I call it as I see it. <br><br>However, I must point out my comments are only limited to the calvary chapel in Philly, because that's only one I had attended. I have heard of similar comments about some of the others, but since I have not been to the them personally, I will let some else comment on the them.<br><br>that's my $2c. <br><br>In Christ,<br>Carlos
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
One person e-mailed me so many moons ago speaking about Calvary Chapel. He said it was more like a Chippendale approach to Church (i.e. more of a flesh approach and showy, then spiritual). It was funny when I first heard his phraseology, but indeed it is a very sad state of affairs when such things as this exist. The Gospel (?--which Arminianism in any brand is not) is smothered by fluff and fantasy. God's sovereignty though is clearly revealed in all this, seeing that He saves His own in-spite of all the trashy treasures some preach and display for Christ.
I have read an article espousing their "fence-riding" on the issue of Calvinism/Arminianism. I too thought that it sounded like Arminianism! I found the article on the Apologetics Index website- it's sad that they use the article on there because they have a lot of other things right (articles on the danger of Latter Rain theology, dangers of JWs and Mormons, defense of the Trinity, etc.)
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
Yes they do have some things right. The pastor of the one chapel in philly did say some solid things sometimes . You can tell that He had read Spurgeon too. Unfortunately, he was influenced much by Chuck Smith. As a result, sometimes he would say contradictory things in the same sermon. One minute He would be espousing some things that would be classified as "calvinism" and five minutes later, saying things that I had seen in Smith's writings. He would be quoting Spurgeon on election and then canceling it out with a saying from Smith. I recall one statement that He said, "Lord save the Elect, and then elect some more". When he preached on John 10:26, He said "tonight we are going to be calvinists" and on another night "we'll be arminians".
I do have to admit I have met some believers from there who are pretty solid in other areas (besides the doctrines of Grace, sovereignty of God, etc.), such as Justification by faith. But that then leads to to the question. Can one can be still be considered "Solid" or "sound" in theology while adhering to arminianism? What do you guys think?
In Christ, Carlos
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
funny the way you said it, although the situation itself is sad .However, like you pointed out God still saves his sheep in the midst of all that stuff. Praise God.
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
In reply to:"Lord save the Elect, and then elect some more".
That is part and parcel of the Arminian doctrine--continuous selection/election instead of from the foundation....
In reply to:I do have to admit I have met some believers from there who are pretty solid in other areas (besides the doctrines of Grace, sovereignty of God, etc.), such as Justification by faith.
How can one be solid on Justification by Faith Alone and not be a 5 pointer, et. al.? Me thinks this is impossible!
In the church I attended when I became a Christian, the pastor is a 4-point "Calvinist." ("Christ did not die only for the elect.") This pastor is very, very biblical, very knowledgable about the Bible, and is a very Godly man. So, I assumed 4-point was biblical - accurate, and the way I should be. I have read some books, and read articles on web sites that have made me question that. Also, 4-point, doesn't seem "reasonable," using my own logic. I am hearing again and again, that the points just don't seperate. I have been intending to study this, but havn't done that yet. I think that will require a lot of time - reading and "meditating" on what I have read. I would not call myself a 5-poiner without knowing precisely what is involved in that. I have a feeling there is a lot involved. Yet, I'm no longer calling myself a 4-point.
But, isn't it safe to say that Christ died for the world, in the sense that the entire world - in general- benefited? By that, I mean, that although most people never become Christians, His death benefited them while here on earth. The world changed drastically after Christianity came on the scene, and it changed for the better, so didn't this benefit the world? Didn't His death do something very good for all the world? There are perhaps people who live in remote, isolated areas of the world who didn't profit from it, but the world in general did.
I know this is not what the fifth point is about, but this is just a thought on the subject.
In reply to:But, isn't it safe to say that Christ died for the world, in the sense that the entire world - in general- benefited? By that, I mean, that although most people never become Christians, His death benefited them while here on earth. The world changed drastically after Christianity came on the scene, and it changed for the better, so didn't this benefit the world? Didn't His death do something very good for all the world? There are perhaps people who live in remote, isolated areas of the world who didn't profit from it, but the world in general did.
I liked the following statement made by John murray from his excellent article on the Atonement in response to your question(s). It's here on the highway. I highly recommend it. The Link is : http://www.the-highway.com/atonement_murray.html
Murray says" It is true that many benefits accrue from the redemptive work of Christ to the non-elect in this life. It is in virtue of what Christ did that there is a gospel of salvation and this gospel is proclaimed freely to all without distinction. Untold blessings are dispensed to the world for the simple reason that God has his people in the world and is fulfilling in it His redemptive purpose. Christ is head over all things and it is in the exercise of His mediatorial lordship that He dispenses these blessings. But His lordship is the reward of His atoning work. Hence all the favors which even the reprobate receive in this life are related in one way or another to the atonement and may be said to flow from it. If so, they were designed to flow from it, and this means that the atonement embraced in its design the bestowment of these benefits upon the reprobate. But this is not to say that the atonement, in its specific character as atonement, is designed for the reprobate. It is one thing to say that certain benefits accrue to the reprobate from the atonement; it is entirely different to say that the atonement itself is designed for the reprobate. And the fallacy of the latter supposition becomes apparent when we remember that it is of the nature of the atonement to secure benefits which the reprobate never enjoy. In a word, the atonement is bound up with its efficacy in respect of obedience, expiation, propitiation, reconciliation, and redemption. When the Scripture speaks of Christ as dying for men, it is His vicarious death on their behalf that is in view and all the content which belongs to the atonement defines the significance of the formula "died for." Thus we may not say that He died for all men any more than that He made atonement for all men."
In Christ, Carlos
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
In reply to: I am hearing again and again, that the points just don't separate. I have been intending to study this, but haven't done that yet. I think that will require a lot of time - reading and "meditating" on what I have read. I would not call myself a 5-pointer without knowing precisely what is involved in that. I have a feeling there is a lot involved. Yet, I'm no longer calling myself a 4-point.
Carlos answered the rest of your post, thus I will offer some suggestions for reading. And YES [color:red]all 5 points stand together as one holy unit of explanation of the Gospel. If you do away with one they will all come crashing down upon one another-- Calvin's Calvinism (Humpty Dumpty) will have a great fall. But when you see them all together this makes an impenetrable fortress of truth that has withstood the test of time. They are a velvet thread weaving in and out throughout the whole text of Scripture.
Some good books to "begin" studying Calvinism with:
Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (buy this one first) GI Williamson, The Westminster Confession of Faith Edwin H Palmer, The Five Points of Calvinism David N Steele and Curtis Thomas, The Five Points of Calvinism James White, The Potter's Freedom John Murray, The Imputation of Adam's Sin John Murray, Redemption Accomplished and Applied Martin Luther, The Bondage of the Will (there is an easier version, Born Slaves, but is not as dynamic IMHO) John Owen, Death of the Death in the Death of Christ (the Introductory essay by Packer is here - excellent)
The Best Systematic and a must read: Louis Berkhof, Systematic Theology (get the largest one, there are several versions out)
of course, there are several others-these were just the first to come to mind.
In reply to:I take no responsibility if you become financially embarrassed like the rest of us from purchasing books
[image]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/rofl.gif" alt="rofl" title="rofl[/image] add me to that list of the "financially embarrased from purchasing books".
"Let all that mind...the peace and comfort of their own souls, wholly apply themselves to the study of Jesus Christ, and him crucified"(Flavel)
I have The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Boettner and The Five Points of Calvinism by Palmer in my library. I read The Reformed Doctine of Predestination years ago, but haven't read The Five Points of Calvinism yet. <br><br>I'm going to re-read parts of Boettner's book.<br><br>Thanks for the list of recommended reading material. I'll get started on this.
Boy, do I hate doing this to you! But, there are literally hundreds of articles on Calvinism which you can access here: Calvinism and the Reformed Faith
![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/OffTopic.gif)
</center><br><br>Thanks for the links!<br><br>By the way, I almost went to a Calvary Chapel, but I decided against it when someone described the denomination (I know they don't like to call it that!) very "showy" in their worship. Is this true? They said that the service is like entertainment with lights, mood music, etc. I know it grew out of the Jesus People movement. Also, I have heard they have "afterglow" services where they allow speaking in tongues and other charismatic things.
funny the way you said it, although the situation itself is sad .However, like you pointed out God still saves his sheep in the midst of all that stuff. Praise God.
But, there are literally hundreds of articles on Calvinism which you can access here: ![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/pilgrim/pil_sig2.gif)
![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/pencil.gif)