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Re: Double predestination [Re: Pilgrim] #29610
Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:36 PM
Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:36 PM

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Pilgrim said:
So, before these two individuals were born, God had loved Jacob and thus elected him to salvation. And contrariwise God hated Esau and thus _______ him to eternal damnation. Now, you go ahead and fill in the blank. You don't like the word "reprobate[d]"? fine.. give me a better one. But the undeniable fact is that God's predestination includes both love toward and hatred of individuals; aka: salvation and damnation. Unless God has determined the end of those who are destined to hell, as well as those destined to glory, then you are left with a god Who is not the God Who has revealed Himself in Scripture as the SOVEREIGN LORD, but the "reasonable" god of man's imagination.

In His sovereign grace,


Are you saying nothing more than Esau is necessarily damnable according to that which God in His impeccable goodness, perfect justice, and the immutability of His hatred ordained before the foundation of the world? Or, are you assigning to God a purpose to cause Esau to be damnable? If yes, that is my objection to word "reprobation."

Re: Double predestination [Re: J_Edwards] #29611
Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:04 PM
Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:04 PM

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J_Edwards said:
You CLAIM that God ONLY has foreknowledge (which is Arminian to the core).


No, I said the referenced versed did not prove predestination. Other verses do prove that God ordains all events.

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J Edward continues
Think about what this means? If God has foreknowledge and does not stop a person from being reprobate what is this? If God takes no positive action to elect what is this? Is this not Reprobation?


No, reprobation would be God causing a person to be damnable.

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J EdwardsYour problem in understanding this is seen in your statement to Tom below and because of your misunderstanding of Adam and his sin (which has been discussed before). What did you say to Tom?

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Speratus said to Tom,

Once you start down the path of human reason you must continue it to its logical conclusion. If God chooses to leave men in their sins, is He not the cause of their damnation?

You think we are saying that God decrees election and reprobation in the same way, but that is not Reformed Theology. God does not actively decree man to sin, as Adam (the covenant head of the entire human race) already accomplished this on his own, et. al. As Sproul states, “In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives.” God works regeneration monergistically but never sin, because He does not need to because sin and the sin nature already have a set course.


I understand the difference between Calvinism and hyper-Calvinism. I am saying Calvinism is illogical. God could easily save everyone. God doesn't simply pass by. He chooses to pass by.

Re: Double predestination #29612
Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:07 PM
Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:07 PM
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speratus said:
Are you saying nothing more than Esau is necessarily damnable according to that which God in His impeccable goodness, perfect justice, and the immutability of His hatred ordained before the foundation of the world? Or, are you assigning to God a purpose to cause Esau to be damnable? If yes, that is my objection to word "reprobation."

I'm saying what I have already written, which was basically nothing more than a paraphrase of what SPIRIT of GOD wrote in Romans 9. Before they were born, God determined to love the sinner Jacob, who was under condemnation by virtue of his being a member of the human race and elected him to salvation. And, likewise, Esau, being a sinner and thus under the just condemnation of God, he also being a member of the human race, God determined to withhold His mercy and consign him to hell, aka: reprobation/preterition.

You can play your silly evasive games all you like but it cannot blot out the indisputable truth of Scripture concerning God's sovereignty in ALL THINGS. You can deceive yourself if you like, which you obvious have by consciously avoiding the myriad biblical passages which teach these things, which is nothing more than the fruit of sin-plagued "reasoning", which hates the truth and substitutes it with a lie. Again.... God loved Jacob and thus elected him to salvation in Christ. God hated Esau and thus _________ him to damnation. Fill in the blank. But whatever word you choose, it will always result in the same thing... i.e., God determined to not save Esau and thus consigned him to a just damnation.


"All God's people, sooner or later, are brought to this point — to see that God has a 'people,' 'a peculiar people,' a people separate from the world, a people whom He has 'formed for Himself, that they should show forth His praise.' Election sooner or later, is riveted in the hearts of God's people. And a man, that lives and dies against this blessed doctrine, lives and dies in his sins; and if he dies in that enmity, he will be damned in that enmity." - J. C. Philpot.

"The Sovereignty of God is the stumbling block on which thousands fall and perish; and if we go contending with God about His sovereignty it will be our eternal ruin. It is absolutely necessary that we should submit to God as an absolute sovereign, and the sovereign of our souls; as one who may have mercy on whom He will have mercy and harden whom He will!" - Jonathan Edwards


In His sovereign grace,


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Re: Double predestination #29613
Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:47 PM
Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:47 PM
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Spearatus says,

God could easily save everyone. God doesn't simply pass by. He chooses to pass by.

And when God chooses to pass by what do YOU call this?


I will not address the rest of your post at this time as, <p align="center">
[Linked Image]</p>


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Double predestination #29614
Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:31 PM
Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:31 PM
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Well Paul didn't have any problem with it. Romans 9:18-21, are you going to make the same accusation about him?

Tom

Re: Double predestination #29615
Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:53 PM
Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:53 PM
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Speratus

Your refusing to fill in the blanks tells me that you are afraid of the answers, to which you know deep down are true.
In a way, I can understand where you are coming from. It caused me a lot of anguish trying to find loop holes out of this, but in the end I realized that I needed to submit to what I knew to be true.
Looking back over that time, I now realize that my real problem was that I was looking at the matter through my own eyes, instead of my sovereign Lord's eyes.
When I realized this, it was like a light went on.

Tom

Re: Double predestination #29616
Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:29 PM
Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:29 PM
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OK I tried, however your reply makes me quite sad. I am greatful though for your posts and the posts the others have made. Here is something I thought was quite good and even beautiful if thought upon. Sorry about the cut and paste.


Quote
. . . when preaching on election and reprobation, we must not place them dualistically over against each other. They are not on the same level. They are not corresponding halves of the same thing, but together they form a unity. Reprobation should always be presented as subordinate to election, as serving the latter according to God's counsel. From this it follows that reprobation should not be preached with a certain delight in the doctrine. He who is forever preaching reprobation shows not only that he is harsh and cruel, but also that he has not understood the work of the Lord God. God's love remains the central thought. He has chosen in His eternal love; and, for the sake of this love, He has also reprobated. Thus all God's work becomes a beautiful organic unity. In this way He is and remains God, and He alone. Thus, at the conclusion of all this, we exclaim in adoration with the apostle, "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God; for of him and through him and to him are all things! To him be glory forever!"

The Place of Reprobation in the Preaching of the Gospel
Herman Hoeksema

Re: Double predestination [Re: Tom] #29617
Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:42 PM
Sat Dec 10, 2005 9:42 PM

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Tom said:
Well Paul didn't have any problem with it. Romans 9:18-21, are you going to make the same accusation about him?

Tom


Paul, unlike Calvinists, carefully distinguishes between the work of God, who alone prepares vessels of honor, and the work of devil and of man, who made himself a vessel of dishonor at the instigation of the devil. Thus, the devil and man are the cause of men being fitted for destruction not an unbiblical decree of reprobation.

Re: Double predestination #29618
Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:02 PM
Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:02 PM
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Paul, unlike Calvinists, carefully distinguishes between the work of God, who alone prepares vessels of honor, and the work of devil and of man, who made himself a vessel of dishonor at the instigation of the devil. Thus, the devil and man are the cause of men being fitted for destruction not an unbiblical decree of reprobation.

Paul, unlike an Arminian, wrote the Scripture which empathically states, “hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?” (Rom 9:21). Speratus says man is to be credited with reprobation (man is now making eternal decrees before he is born... <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />), however what sayeth the Scripture; "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy" (Rom 9:16). Does John agree? John says, "who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13). Speratus, “who art thou that repliest against God?” (Rom 9:20). Speratus now attributes the work of God to Satan! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" />

Speratus do you know the difference between an eternal decree and works (of men, of angels)? Please show me some verses of angels making eternal decrees?

Re: Double predestination #29619
Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:37 PM
Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:37 PM
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speratus said:
Paul, unlike Calvinists, carefully distinguishes between the work of God, who alone prepares vessels of honor, and the work of devil and of man, who made himself a vessel of dishonor at the instigation of the devil. Thus, the devil and man are the cause of men being fitted for destruction not an unbiblical decree of reprobation.

Your scathing accusations are not welcome here. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scold.gif" alt="" />

Again, since you have professed to hold that ALL THINGS have been foreordained by God, yet you state that men fit themselves for destruction, contrary to Paul's inspired statements in Romans 9:21, 22 and Peter also in 1Peter 2:7, 8, it begs the question: "WHEN did/does God decree the end of the wicked to destruction?". Calvinists are in agreement with the Scriptures and hold that God's decree(s) are from eternity, which of necessity includes God's foreordination/predestination of reprobation for the wicked. Do you hold to a form of "Open Theism" whereby God sits in the heavens in ignorance about those whom He has not elected to salvation? Truly, if God has not elected an individual, what other end is there awaiting him/her?

Again, this is all soooooooo simple. If there is one opening for a job and there are two applicants contending for the position and the boss chooses one, then he has of necessity also chosen to reject the other. Even a child can comprehend such things. But truly, only a child of God can and will accept God's indisputable sovereignty and right to save whom He will and to damn whom He will. "Salvation is of the Lord." (Jonah 2:9)

In His grace,


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Re: Double predestination #29620
Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:10 AM
Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:10 AM
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<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/crazyeyes.gif" alt="" /> Where pray tell, does Paul say that?

Tom

Re: Double predestination [Re: J_Edwards] #29621
Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:14 AM
Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:14 AM

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J_Edwards said:
Quote
Paul, unlike Calvinists, carefully distinguishes between the work of God, who alone prepares vessels of honor, and the work of devil and of man, who made himself a vessel of dishonor at the instigation of the devil. Thus, the devil and man are the cause of men being fitted for destruction not an unbiblical decree of reprobation.

Paul, unlike an Arminian, wrote the Scripture which empathically states, “hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?” (Rom 9:21). Speratus says man is to be credited with reprobation (man is now making eternal decrees before he is born... <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />), however what sayeth the Scripture; "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy" (Rom 9:16). Does John agree? John says, "who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13). Speratus, “who art thou that repliest against God?” (Rom 9:20). Speratus now attributes the work of God to Satan! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/drop.gif" alt="" />

Speratus do you know the difference between an eternal decree and works (of men, of angels)? Please show me some verses of angels making eternal decrees?


Again, you are going beyond the scriptures to construct a doctrine that does not exist. Romans 9:21 says God has the authority from one lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor. Isolated from other verses, there is nothing here that says that God makes a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor. Romans 9:21 is not a proof text for predestination of election or reprobation. Your other reference texts are proof texts for election not reprobation.

Re: Double predestination [Re: Pilgrim] #29622
Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:32 AM
Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:32 AM

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Pilgrim said:
Quote
speratus said:
Paul, unlike Calvinists, carefully distinguishes between the work of God, who alone prepares vessels of honor, and the work of devil and of man, who made himself a vessel of dishonor at the instigation of the devil. Thus, the devil and man are the cause of men being fitted for destruction not an unbiblical decree of reprobation.

Your scathing accusations are not welcome here. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scold.gif" alt="" />


I will refrain from accusations against Calvinists.

Quote
Pilgrim continues
Again, since you have professed to hold that ALL THINGS have been foreordained by God, yet you state that men fit themselves for destruction, contrary to Paul's inspired statements in Romans 9:21, 22 and Peter also in 1Peter 2:7, 8, it begs the question: "WHEN did/does God decree the end of the wicked to destruction?". Calvinists are in agreement with the Scriptures and hold that God's decree(s) are from eternity, which of necessity includes God's foreordination/predestination of reprobation for the wicked. Do you hold to a form of "Open Theism" whereby God sits in the heavens in ignorance about those whom He has not elected to salvation? Truly, if God has not elected an individual, what other end is there awaiting him/her?

Again, this is all soooooooo simple. If there is one opening for a job and there are two applicants contending for the position and the boss chooses one, then he has of necessity also chosen to reject the other. Even a child can comprehend such things. But truly, only a child of God can and will accept God's indisputable sovereignty and right to save whom He will and to damn whom He will. "Salvation is of the Lord." (Jonah 2:9)

In His grace,


God foreordains all events. God could just as easily save all as some. The blood of Christ is of infinite merit.

Can we therefore conclude that God's purpose in permitting events which appear evil to us is to cause the damnation of the reprobate? No, God's purpose is to cause the salvation of the elect. Thus, the salvation of the elect is taken out of their own hands and placed in the hands of Almigthy God whose purpose can not fail. On the other hand, God does not purpose the damnation of any (choose to pass by). The damned are justly condemned by their own sin.

Re: Double predestination [Re: Tom] #29623
Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:35 AM
Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:35 AM

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Tom said:
<img src="/forum/images/graemlins/crazyeyes.gif" alt="" /> Where pray tell, does Paul say that?

Tom


Romans 5:12-19

Re: Double predestination #29624
Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:45 AM
Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:45 AM
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Speratus syas

Romans 9:21 says God has the authority from one lump to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor. Isolated from other verses, there is nothing here that says that God makes a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor.

These verses are not isolated. What of Esau (Rom 9:11, 13)? Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God! Proverbs 16:4 states,“The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil” and Peter concurs, saying "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed" (1 Peter 2:8) and again, "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption" (2 Peter 2:12). Jude sums up this decree of reprobation saying, "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 4). All these men were made from the same lump, and thus, if as you say the reprobabte had a "will" in what happened to themsleves, then so would the elect, but this does away with (1) election, (2) the sovereignty of God, (3) salvation by grace alone,... i.e. the whole Gospel.


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