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Re: Double predestination [Re: J_Edwards] #29715
Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:20 AM
Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:20 AM
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Quote
J_Edwards said:
Cheung is a radical. He claims, "It is with this same mindset, and the same willing to admit error, that I insist that there is no possibility that my present apologetic method (among other things) can be defeated or refuted, either by reason or by revelation." In his Systematic Theology he explains that the imago Dei is not physical but only rational since God is not physical. May we ask him, what of Jesus? In addition, he ascribes to Scripturalism.

He is all over the net casting his net of unusual theology. For more read the articles at: Papers by Aquascum. If this is the best you have B57 <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />


I don`t agree with everything cheung has written , but he`s on target with this particular article. If we read any author for that matter, be it church father or whatever, none are infalliable ! <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/ClapHands.gif" alt="" />


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
Re: Double predestination [Re: beloved57] #29716
Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:10 AM
Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:10 AM
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Since you like “this article” so much what do you do with statements like those below that contradict your so-called beliefs (and Cheung’s at some places). You claim that God is the Author of Evil, but Cheung states “in your article”:

Quote
If God indeed determines all natural events and human affairs, then it follows that he has also DECREED [not AUTHORED] the existence of evil.

Since we derive our very concept and definition of goodness from God, to accuse him of evil would be like saying that good is evil, which is a contradiction.

Now, I nor anyone else here has enough time to go through Cheung’s article (or his Systematic) and expose all the false and questionable theology. However, you are merely appealing to a man, who has already managed to destroy his reputation among the knowledgeable theologians of our era. In addition, you appealed to Sproul before and quoted only that portion that “you thought” supported your case, however when exposed and you realized you had failed in your attempt to deceive you just walked away from the post.

Appeal to Scripture, if you can? Make a complete exegetical argument from Scripture (i.e. you must comment on the Scripture in detail and not just cut and paste it). If you can’t then you will have proven “once again” that your fanaticism is unfounded, false, and heretical.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Double predestination [Re: J_Edwards] #29717
Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:31 AM
Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:31 AM
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Joe states
Quote
You claim that God is the Author of Evil


I repeat myself again. definition for author is=An originator or creator, as of a theory or plan.

Sin is the result of Gods original plan and purpose in christ. God decreed sin into this world, it was part of his purpose and plan. My God is not an reactionary God, all things proceed from His eternal Good pleasure. Also for the 100, 000 th time, I said that sin does not come from within the Divine essence of His Being, but from within His Sovereign prerogative and Good pleasure <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/Banghead.gif" alt="" /> You only highlight and harp on certain things . I said that sin does not come from within the Divine essence of His Being , but from within His Sovereign prerogative and Good pleasure

Please if you are going to represent something I say, do it honestly and with integriety <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/BigThumbUp.gif" alt="" />

you say
Quote
Now, I nor anyone else here has enough time to go through Cheung’s article


please speak for yourself, you don't know how God may lead another person do you?

you say
Quote
Appeal to Scripture, if you can? Make a complete exegetical argument from Scripture (i.e. you must comment on the Scripture in detail and not just cut and paste it).


you are hilarious , Like I have not been doing that ! But I tell you what, I have no problem with that challenge, and you just make sure you do the same <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/argue.gif" alt="" />


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
Re: Double predestination [Re: beloved57] #29718
Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:58 AM
Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:58 AM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,851
NH, USA
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Quote
beloved57 said:
I repeat myself again. definition for author is=An originator or creator, as of a theory or plan.

This is sheer folly! [Linked Image] When a person "authors" a book, this means that he writes something which once was not previously written. When God created the world, it did not previously exist until He willed it. Thus, by your definition, which is fabricated by you to serve your agenda and purpose, God created sin which beforehand did not exist. Thus of necessity, God is responsible and culpable for sin. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/nono.gif" alt="" /> God did not originate sin. This 99.9999% of those who profess to be Christians have affirmed throughout history. The origin of sin can be accredited ONLY to that which God created, i.e., angels and humans. That He decreed that it would happen is NOT the same as Him creating/authoring it.

Do we need to hold a class for remedial English, Greek or Hebrew grammar as well as Hermeneutics 101? It is utterly inconceivable and to which the Bible testifies, that there is no evil within God. For God to be the "author", or "originator" or "creator" of sin, there must be a predisposition of evil within the divine essence, which even you have admitted doesn't exist. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/igiveup.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Double predestination [Re: Pilgrim] #29719
Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:23 PM
Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:23 PM
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God creating sin and God sinning are not the same thing <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
Re: Double predestination [Re: beloved57] #29720
Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:09 PM
Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:09 PM
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USA
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beloved57 said:
God creating sin and God sinning are not the same thing <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/bash.gif" alt="" />

Can sin exist without a sinner? Since you believe God created sin prior to man even sinning then you must also believe in the pre-existence of life--prior to Adam--unless God himself is "the sinner of the entire universe." According to Plato's doctrine of anamnesis, our souls preexist our earthly birth; our true home is our place of origin among the gods. Philo, Gnostisim, and Hinduism all teach the pre-existence of souls. Is this what you believe?

Matt 3:2 Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Reformed and Always Reforming,
Re: Double predestination [Re: beloved57] #29721
Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:02 PM
Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:02 PM
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New York
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Here is a great article. Joe, Pilgrim, I am not promoting Particular Baptists as a rule, but I find CC Morris spot on in this article, refuting Darryls claim

http://www.the-remnant.com/backissue6.htm


some snippets.

My observation, such as it might be, is that those who believe God is the author of sin are an extreme minority, disfavored by the overwhelming majority of Old School Baptists, regardless of the factionalism which divides them on other issues. You have not seen anything about this subject in The Remnant because it has not been brought up before, at least under my watch. You did not misunderstand me. I believe saying God is the author of sin is an ugly heresy, and I hope to continue saying it as the Lord gives me life and breath.



I have found no Bible text that told us “He causes evil” in the sense of moral evil or sin. If there is one, I ask your forgiveness, and I ask you to produce it.

Before you say Isaiah 45.7, see the Jerome Zanchius and John Gill quotes, below. If you say Amos 3.6, the same principle applies. Most commentators on these and like texts say that the evil under consideration is calamitous evil and adversity, such as wars, famines, and storms (Compare Job 1.13-19 with Job 2.10), and not moral evil. Saying “God causes calamitous evil” is a far cry from saying “God approves of and causes unrighteousness.”



You seem to equate the noun “Author” (as in “God is the author of sin,” which I do not concede) with the verb “Authorize,” which, if possible, would be worse yet:



JOHN GILL

Do not err, my beloved brethren. “For to make God the author of sin, or to charge him with being concerned in temptation to sin, is a very great error, a fundamental one, which strikes at the nature and being of God, and at the perfection of his holiness: it is a denying of him, and is one of those damnable errors and heresies, which bring upon men swift destruction; and therefore to be guarded against, rejected, and abhorred by all that profess any regard unto him, his name and glory.” (John Gill’s Commentary on James 1.16)


ELDER H. B. JONES

“We believe that God’s eternal and Holy purpose embraces all things whatsoever comes to pass, as ‘The Lord of hosts hath sworn saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed so shall it stand.’ That God has purposed that all righteousness shall come to pass by His authority and influence, and that all unrighteousness shall come to pass without His authority and influence; as is most explicitly set forth in the London Confession of Faith of the Baptist of 1689, and reaffirmed by them in the Philadelphia Confession of 1742, upon the authority of the Holy Scriptures. We do not believe that the predestination of God is the cause which moves men to action either in righteousness or unrighteousness; but that all righteous acts are the fruit of the Holy Spirit, and that all unrighteous acts are the works of the flesh under the influence of Satan. Therefore we do not believe that God is or can be either the author or approver of sin, as we have been unjustly accused.”


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
Re: Double predestination [Re: Joe k] #29722
Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:51 PM
Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:51 PM
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Read this article, http://www.asweetsavor.150m.com/ta/ncp.html it puts things in the perspective that I am attempting to get across.God causes everthing. Joe k, before reading this article, if you decide to read it, answer me this, Do you believe that adam sinned according to Gods purpose ? Was it Gods will, for adam to fall ? Yes or no. Did God purpose adam to sin?


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
Re: Double predestination [Re: beloved57] #29723
Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:57 PM
Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 251
New York
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Quote
beloved57 said:
Read this article, http://www.asweetsavor.150m.com/ta/ncp.html it puts things in the perspective that I am attempting to get across.God causes everthing. Joe k, before reading this article, if you decide to read it, answer me this, Do you believe that adam sinned according to Gods purpose ? Was it Gods will, for adam to fall ? Yes or no. Did God purpose adam to sin?


Darryl, I am through with the dance. You MUST listen and do what you are told. Until you read the article by CC Morris and contradtict anything found there, I will nto do a thing.

BAsically what I am saying is we are all guests here, but you are not going to continue this potporri of questions without addressing one at a time. Read the article by morris. You put this sweetsavor stuff all the time. I am showing you that PB's are not in your corner. Only the ones who have gone off the deep end.


There never was a sinner half as big as Christ is as a Savior.
Re: Double predestination [Re: Joe k] #29724
Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:07 PM
Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:07 PM
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you said
Quote
You MUST listen and do what you are told
Please don`t speak to me in that tone ! Thats very inconsiderate, and you have no authority over anyone except maybe your wife and kids <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/argue.gif" alt="" />

Now if you don`t want to read the article, then thats your choice. Now if want to answer my question, please do , if not so be it. Here is the questions again
Quote
Do you believe that adam sinned according to Gods purpose ? Was it Gods will, for adam to fall ? Yes or no. Did God purpose adam to sin?
in fact I would like to read anyones respond to that question/s...


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
Re: Double predestination [Re: beloved57] #29725
Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:58 PM
Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,851
NH, USA
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beloved57 said:
Do you believe that adam sinned according to Gods purpose ? Was it Gods will, for adam to fall ? Yes or no. Did God purpose adam to sin?

Here we are once again trying to deal with the likes of you. [Linked Image]

That question has been answered myriad times, I think by everyone who has responded to you in this thread. God has foreordained ALL THINGS, including the Fall. This is NOT the issue of contention here. What is germane is your insistence that "God is the Author of sin", which the Church and everyone here categorically denies, but you. Foreordination is not a synonym for creation. And until you understand that point, you will continue to hold to heresy of which we will not permit you to promulgate on this Board. Can you at least comprehend that much? [Linked Image]

FYI, I am not a "guest" here and I do have authority over what is allowed including your presence on this Board. [Linked Image]

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Double predestination [Re: Pilgrim] #29726
Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:19 PM
Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:19 PM
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Pilgrim says
Quote
God has foreordained ALL THINGS, including the Fall.


Then we agree, Adams fall is a result of Gods purpose. God purposed the fall. Now do you fully understand the ramifications of that truth ?

Pilgrim says
Quote
FYI, I am not a "guest" here and I do have authority over what is allowed including your presence on this Board


I understand that pilgrim, and you have been gracious in permitting me to post even though we don`t agree.

Here is one last article that explains what I am saying, even though it may not change anyones mind, yet I shall be vindicated as to being the only person who understands this important truth the I do...

http://www.vincentcheung.com/2005/05/31/the-author-of-sin/


Acts 20: 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.
Re: Double predestination [Re: beloved57] #29727
Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:57 PM
Sat Jun 17, 2006 9:57 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,851
NH, USA
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Well, what we have been trying to tell you is clearly brought out in Cheung's article, which is sheer heresy. At least there is now no possible reason for anyone to be confused as to what it is exactly you believe concerning this matter of God being the "Author of sin".

To be perfectly honest, I am not going to waste my time refuting Cheung nor you on this subject since you have displayed an unteachable spirit and seem adamant in opposing the doctrine of the historic Christian Church, which men far more knowledgeable of Scripture than Cheung or you have ably defended. But I would point out one obvious error, which also demonstrates Cheung's fallacious hermeneutic, i.e., his rendering of the Scriptures in order to promote his heresy.

Quote
Cheung writes:
And Paul does not say, "But God is not the author of sin," but instead he says, "God has the right to make one person righteous and another person evil, to save one and damn another. Of course no one can resist his will! But who are you to talk back?" [re: Rom 9:19-21]

Even a grammar school student can read that passage and conclude that Cheung's interpretation of it is wrong. The text does NOT say that God "makes one person evil". God has never created anything evil and He certainly has never and never will nor can He create anything, including a man, "evil". It would be 1) a categorical contradiction and violation of His own nature, and 2) such a man who was created "evil" would not be responsible nor accountable for any sin he committed. The text is dealing with the subjects of "Predestination" and "Election"; God's dealing with members of the human race who are seen as fallen. Out of the mass of Adam's race, God has the prerogative to choose some to eternal life and to consign the rest to damnation. That is the teaching of the passage and NOT that God "creates" ex nihilo human beings as being either good or evil.

Now that you have made your position crystal clear, again I am going to warn you that if you persist in promoting this blasphemous heresy, you will be removed from this Board. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/scold.gif" alt="" />

In His grace,


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
Re: Double predestination [Re: beloved57] #29728
Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:01 AM
Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:01 AM
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From the poem Vastness, Alfred Lord Tennyson

Quote

Lies upon this side, Lies upon that side
Truthless violence mourned by the wise
Thousands of voices drowning His own
In a popular torrent of lies upon lies


Denny

Romans 3:22-24


Denny

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." [John 6:68]
Re: Double predestination [Re: Adopted] #29729
Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:40 AM
Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:40 AM
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Here's what did it for me.
Quote
from R.C. Sproul's Chosen By God

20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. Rom 9:20-24 (NASB)

This is a heavy answer to the question. I must confess that I struggle with it. My struggle, however is not over whether the passage teaches double predestination. It clearly does that. My struggle is with the fact that this text supplies ammunition for the advocates of equal ultimacy. It sounds like God is actively making people sinners. But that is not required by the text. He does make vessles of wrath and vessels of honor from the same lump of clay. But if we look closely at the text we will see that the clay with which the potter works is "fallen clay. One batch of clay receives mercy in order to become vessels of honor. That mercy presupposes a clay that is already guily. Likewise God must "endure" the vessels of wrath.

Again the accent in this passage is on God's sovereign purpose and not upon man's free and good choices.


Mercy is the issue, not the SIN. Thats a whole 'nuther topic. In predestination some get mercy, some don't, none deserve it. See? Very simple.

I'm not sure why I am bothering to do this, b57, since this appears to be a one-way enterprise in your world. I suggest you start a blog and turn the comments off if you'd like to just spew your own ignorance onto the web.


Josh
"...the word of God is not bound."--2 Timothy 2:9
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