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straw #36498 Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:27 AM
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I'm coming in on this at a late stage. Just a question or so to Straw and Evangelist.

Quote
straw said:
Tom,
I just think that 'heretic' is such as strong word to use about little lambs who have gone astray. I favour the idea of restoring such 'in the spirit of meekness' lest we be found commiting a greater sin, and that of passing the weight of eternal damnation on souls that are escaping but caught in something we can clearly see.
It is always the matter of the old 2 x 4 that scatcheth the eyeball and causeth one to poke out the eye of the weaker one in the faith. After all we are in the ministry of saving and restoring, not discouraging and damning.
forgave and we aught to 70 x 7. No?

So Straw, who are the people Paul is talking about when he warns the Ephesian elders with the following words (Acts 20):

28"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

29"I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

30and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

31"Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

Is Paul refering to the false teachers as "little lambs gone astray"? No, he is calling them "savage wolves". And is Paul talking about "little lambs gone astray" in 2 Cor. 11:13 - 15? And what about what the Apostle Peter says in 2 Peter 2:1-3? Note how Peter says "they will secretly introduce destructive heresies". Also Jude says that false teachers "have secretly slipped in among you". Thus, false teachers do not immediately announce that they reject this or that fundamental doctrine of true Christianity. False teaching introduces error bit by bit, without people realizing that they are slowly being led away from the Truth.

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CovenantInBlood said:
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evangelist said:
Quote
CovenantInBlood said:
What are all the good things TBN has done for these 300 million people they supposedly reach? Lied to them about the nature of God? Wrested the Scriptures to their own condemnation? Proclaimed the false gospel of promised health and prosperity? Displayed their materialistic vanity for all to see? Lot of "good" TBN has done, indeed!

I think this is your personal opinion

No, it is not "my personal opinion." It is the God-honest TRUTH. Your idea that TBN has done a lot of good, and that many are being saved through their "ministry," is a falsehood and a delusion. The satanic lies of TBN are leading thousands straight to the pit, and those loud-mouthed scoundrels will be held accountable before God Almighty for their snake-oil salesmanship.

Quote
but we all have a turn off button on our tv , or just turn to the world channels at will.

And I suggest you exercise your ability to turn off TBN post-haste.

But to be truthful I don't watch tbn I watch the God cahnnel Europe which is like tbn with all the same hosts.


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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But to be truthful I don't watch tbn I watch the God cahnnel Europe which is like tbn with all the same hosts.

Do you think that changes anything, being as they have the same hosts?

Tom

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Tom said:


Quote
But to be truthful I don't watch tbn I watch the God channel Europe which is like tbn with all the same hosts.

Do you think that changes anything, being as they have the same hosts?

Tom
No but they control better those who are speaching the real gospel of the bible and the will of God.

Have your heard of Joyce Meyer?


But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation,or water baptism is necessary for salvation.
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evangelist said:
No but they control better those who are speaching the <span style="background-color:yellow">real gospel of the bible</span> and the will of God. <emphasis mine: Pilgrim>
Evangelist,

Why it is you don't seem to comprehend the seriousness of what everyone, including myself have been trying to convey to you I can only guess. But what is apparently true is you just don't get it!! And just what is it that you don't get? Well, it is that this "real gospel of the Bible" which you claim the TBN preachers and followers believe is not the "real gospel of the Bible" at all but something alien to it. The Gospel which the Christian Church has taught for centuries upon centuries is TOTALLY DIFFERENT than the "gospel" which those you hold in high regard believe and teach. Sooooo, either you and they are holding to the truth or the historic Christian church holds the truth. Someone is seriously wrong. And I emphasize seriously, because the errors are such that to hold to those errors means damnation. This is not my opinion but it is rather what Paul wrote:

Quote
Galatians 1:6-9 (KJV) "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
Do you understand what Paul wrote there? He said there is only ONE Gospel. And that ONE Gospel is that which he and the other Apostles and Disciples preached and taught. ANY other gospel is no Gospel at all. There is no room for a wishy-washy tolerance when it comes to the Gospel. You either have it right.. or you have it wrong. And, if you have it wrong, then Paul says "may you be accursed (anathema), i.e., cast out of the Church excommunicated, deemed as an unbeliever and/or a heretic. This is serious stuff.

Again, the judgment Paul pronounces is NOT based upon how one looks, how much money one makes or doesn't make, how large a following or fancy a building one erects, how many people are allegedly blessed, how happy one is, or any such thing. The sentence of being accursed falls upon those who hold to and preach/teach different DOCTRINE.... another Gospel. Again Paul writes:

Quote
2 Corinthians 11:3-4 (KJV) "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him]."
Paul's concern here is identical to that which he wrote to the churches in Galatia. The issue is DOCTRINAL.... the Gospel. That which is not the same as that which Paul and the other Apostles and Disciples preached is utterly and totally rejected. It isn't enough to simply speak the word, "Jesus", for there is only ONE Jesus of the Bible. So one must ask, "Jesus who?" and "What did this Jesus do?", etc. Once again, those of the TBN group preach and teach a different Jesus than the Jesus that the historic Christian Church has proclaimed for centuries. Someone is wrong. And whoever is wrong, leading multitudes of people astray, and is liable to judgment along with all those who follow them.

Would you PLEASE take the short time required to read this: What is the Gospel?. Consider what the author has written and then compare that to what you and all those belonging to TBN and similar groups are teaching. At least you should be able to see that there is a black & white difference between the two. Then, it is your responsibility to determine from Scripture, which group is in error. Your eternal destiny hinges greatly upon your decision. I would hope that is worth some of your time.

In His grace,


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But it feeeeeels so good, it must be God!

Perhaps the biggest problem in helping people who don't see the extreme danger of following these Charismatic teachers is getting them to understand and accept that they are addicted to that feeling described above. When these ear-tickling teachings resonate in the soul because they seem to meet some felt need, the resulting glee is attributed to the presence of God Himself. And how dare you call that a bad thing! To do so is, to many caught up in the movement, "blaspheming the Holy Spirit."

I'm in the process of completing an article on reaching Charismatic and Pentecostal loved ones whose souls may be in very real peril as they blissfully follow their feelings straight into apostasy.

Arguing is rarely actually helpful. We cannot make religious addicts see reason - especially because they have been taught not to use reason nor to trust in reason, but to "feel the Spirit" and follow "the anointing."

Nothing will move a religious addict to give up his beloved teachings until those teachings fail him over and over again, forcing the religious addict to confront the facts and examine the teachings instead of his or her own feelings.

It's a tough challenge! But not impossible for God!

-Robin

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Pilgrim wrote to Evangelist:

Quote
Then, it is your responsibility to determine from Scripture, which group is in error. Your eternal destiny hinges greatly upon your decision.

Pilgrim,
How is that? Or is it “your decision hinges entirely upon what has already been decided”?

Or is it that if the Holy Spirit has irresistibly led one to agree (choose to decide to agree) with Calvinism, then this might be evidence that one ‘might be’ elect? And this agreement is some type of decision that man is responsible to make? I especially think that Calvinism replaces, confuses and substitutes the ‘true’ Gospel call for sincere repentance, faith and trust with ‘submission’ to doctrine/portrait of “God’s character” aka ‘the Gospel according to Calvinism’ (And I think it’s defamation of His character and creation).

According to Calvinism, the ‘good news’ for mankind is that one’s eternal destiny hinges entirely on one thing, and whether or not you decide/choose to agree (submit in humility- a work) that you are a miserable puppet creature doesn’t matter one iota as to your eternal destiny. So, if you do ‘agree’, what you agree to is the distilled portrait painted of God by Calvinism... and the only thing one can do is ‘agree’ and (thus believe... a verb) ‘as if’ he/she is elect... called to agree/choose Calvin’s theology. Called or not... apparently decision is important. Agreeing to this portrait of God’s character requires the Calvinist to reject their earlier (usually ‘Arminian’) first understanding of what the ‘good news’ is... which some would call their ‘conversion’ or their decision to believe in Christ (repentance, faith, trust)... and call this evil... and submit to a different God, who can’t be trusted, because of his ‘secretive will’ and double-speak. Who delights in the destruction of souls? According to Calvinism... God does. Besides, according to Calvinism the only souls that can be destroyed are just fulfilling their destiny to His Glory. So... Go TBN... empowered by the Sovereignty of God.

I read a thought provoking article concerning this type of world-view. The entire focus of Calvinism is man’s depraved status and sinful state against God. And it is more than clear that the entire discussions of Calvinism are bent around accepting this Calvinistic portrait of God’s character... period.... and idolatry of doctrine. Yet, when man sins... it is against his neighbor, friend, wife, business associate, stranger... and although I don’t think the following verse by itself sums up ‘the Gospel’, (because, apparently there are many) it comes to my mind as how Christians honor Christ “Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto me.” And if God has a secretive will, I think it has more to do with such. And I know Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants and yes, Bahai persons who live like this and take it to their depraved hearts... and think that this matters more than making one’s priority to be defending or submitting to a doctrine, for doctrine’s sake, in which man selfishly focuses on whether or not he’s a saved puppet... which is a pointless effort for puppets (and damn everyone else)... because if you look at the picture long enough, how does one not begin to look the same way?


Helpless !
-- by “vilmos”

I sit on the subway.
Someone is crawling inside my hat.
There's an ant on the floor too.
I am helpless ! How could I save it ?
How to save all the ants in the wrong places ?

I am dozing in the grass.
Slowly I raise my eyelids.
An ant is standing on its hind legs
waving its antennas.

"YOU KILLED GRANPA!" I recieve its accusation.
Then : "Granpa is no more !"

What can one do ?

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Kathy,

I see that you are still confused more than ever concerning historic Christianity. [Linked Image] Like so many lost souls today, you reject "propositional truth" for something else, e.g., one's feelings, one's opinions, one's imagination concerning God. The Bible makes a self-attestation that IT is the very word of God which He providentially guided to be written down through the agency of a group of chosen vessels (men) who were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Thus everything in the Bible is true truth, i.e., without error. Now, if one would do even a cursory study of the Bible on the word "doctrine", it would reveal that there is ONE SET OF DOCTRINES to which men are to acknowledge as truth, submit to those doctrines and further, to teach those doctrines to others.


Jude 1:3 (ASV) "Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints."


The "faith" mentioned above is a synonym for "truth" or "doctrine", i.e., the will of God revealed to which all men are to submit. Granted, acknowledging a set of teachings does not save anyone. But one cannot be saved without embracing the truth either. Similarly, one is not a Christian if one reads the Bible regularly, prays, attends worship services, helps the poor, etc... But, one cannot be a Christian who does not do those things either. Such things are evidences of a possible saving faith but not the proximate cause of saving faith.

When it comes to the Gospel, it is only logical that it is a set of truths which reveal the person and nature of God, the person of Christ and the Holy Spirit, the atoning work of Christ, the condition of man, his lost condition the necessity of evangelical repentance and faith in Christ and the coming judgment. Such things are not subject to the whim of man's opinion but are "set in stone" as it were and cannot be diminished nor denied and still be deemed the Gospel. There are countless "gods", "christs", "spirits" and "gospels" which are proclaimed today. Only one (or theoretically none) can be true which means all others are false and do not represent the truth which God has revealed. So yes, one's eternal destiny depends upon WHAT a man believes. An artist may paint a portrait of another but depending upon how accurate that portrait is it may or may not truly "represent" the subject. What we believe is that Calvinism is the closest representation of the truth of God and all matters of faith and life which God has set forth in the Bible. Now, you may disagree but then the onus is upon YOU to discredit and disprove that claim since Calvinism has been the foundation of the Church for millennia. Just a small bit of advice if you accept the challenge: Hordes of men have tried to disprove Calvinism and have failed miserably. One may choose to reject the truth, but truth cannot be disproven by substituting falsehood.

Here are a couple of salient articles:

1) Creeds and Standards: Their Significance and Functions, by Gerrit Hendrik Hospers
2) Is Doctrine Necessary, by Michael Bremmer

In His grace,


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Pilgrim,

I’m less confused about historic Christianity. The entire basis for your Doctrine Worship is a circular argument, that can be disproven to thinking individuals, but that requires thinking... an intellectual ability given to mankind by the Creator. Augustine, your idol’s idol believed thinking should not be allowed... especially for women, who should not be educated, but segregated from men... because they are to blame for what vexed him and as a result, his influence vexed families and women for centuries. Other great men like him have come and gone... some contributed to vexing society, others inspired others. You assume that I must color within the lines of the ‘hordes’ to come up against the great genius brilliant lawyer, intellectually elitism/Pharisee for God... but I don’t.

In another time, this anti-thinking approach might argue whether one should save someone who is drowning, because of what day of the week it is. Today it discusses the damnation of infants.

You assume I am basing my statements on my imagination, my feelings, my subjectivity, and while I do possess these attributes, I am not basing my conclusions on them... or what “feels good.” I am basing my conclusions on much observation, and a term used in the Declaration of Independence ‘self evident’ which went on in an entirely anti-Calvinist manner. And likewise, in that manner the promise that this nation’s government would not persecute me for not believing the same as you... something of a victory that took millennia against the mentality of the hordes (and the Grace of God – I believe) to establish. That is in spite of the fact that a few of the founding Fathers were Calvinists... The language is anti-Calvinist, largely Deist. (Which BTW, does not claim to be the Word of God).

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Quote
Kathy said:
. . . According to Calvinism, the ‘good news’ for mankind is that one’s eternal destiny hinges entirely on one thing. . .


Williams <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/my2cents.gif" alt="" />

According to Arminianism the "good news" for mankind is that one’s eternal destiny hinges entirely on one thing. We are the master and God is the puppet. We can handle Him and use Him as we will and when and where we will.



[color:"0000FF"]But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
John 12:37-41 (King James Version)

.
[/color]




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Quote
That is in spite of the fact that a few of the founding Fathers were Calvinists... The language is anti-Calvinist, largely Deist. (Which BTW, does not claim to be the Word of God).

Okay so lets see how well that holds to the truth:
  • Episcopalian/Anglican 32
  • Congregationalist 13
  • Presbyterian 12
  • Quaker 2
  • Unitarian 2
  • Roman Catholic 1

Congregationalists had the Savoy Declaration a Reformed (Calvinist) document, Episcopalians/Anglicans hold to the 39 Articles which have Calvinistic doctrines regarding free will, justification, and salvation. Do I really need to go on about Presbyterians? Seems the majority of the founding fathers were actually Calvinist or at least aware of the doctrines of grace. Oh btw where I got the list was here.


Peter

If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. Augustine of Hippo
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Williams 2 cents:
Quote
According to Arminianism the "good news" for mankind is that one’s eternal destiny hinges entirely on one thing. We are the master and God is the puppet. We can handle Him and use Him as we will and when and where we will.

William,

That is called a “Straw man” statement, and is not close to hardly what Arminianism portrays as ‘the Gospel’. On the other hand, Calvinism clearly does have one sole focus... and it clearly does live and breathe to add a disclaimer to John 3:16. And that is not a Straw Man argument. And no, I am not saying that Arminianism claims John 3:16 to be the whole Gospel. Pilgrim often states “context, context...” and I think that Calvinists are the biggest offenders of such.

Pilgrim,

You stated that Calvinism was the first doctrine of the true Church. You and others that share your faith state impossible statements as ‘fact’. If I were to hold up the color purple, you would tell me it’s green. For instance, you state Calvinism has won the debate. There are hordes who state Calvinism lost.

It was Augustine who developed the doctrine of Original Sin... which he based upon his subjective understanding of Scripture, influenced by his Gnostic ascetism and his struggle/angst with his libido and the opposite sex. His words and ideas were used as support for torturing heretics... and for priests ordered to desert their wives and children... which can be supported by the Bible... or not.

The Bible may state that there is “ONE DOCTRINE”... but clearly there are many and the list gets longer every day. I dispute that there ever was One Doctrine... as there is evidence to the contrary. The Bible has been used to support a myriad of ‘true’ statements that are in total opposition to each other. No... I do not believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, as there are facts and evidence to the contrary. Facts and evidence that I doubt you would honestly consider for reasons I do understand. And yes, that leaves me with a pair of scissors and Jefferson’s Bible to wonder about, and Tom Paine.... with the Augustine quote about ‘picking and choosing’... which he himself did.

I am sure that those told the Koran is the Word of God, are also expected never to investigate the truth of that claim... same goes for the Book of Mormon.

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Boanerges,

This is in partial response to your post:


[color:"0000FF"]Anti-Calvinist ideology:[/color]

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

Calvinist language:
"Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt. "John Calvin

* * * * * *


Quote
http://www.geocities.com/calvinismheresy/defenders.html

We are quoting from the Calvinist CONFESSION OF FAITH, Revised in the National Synod, Held at Dordrecht, in the years 1618 and 1619. This confession is included into THE THREE FORMS OF UNITY (with the Heidelberg Catechism and the Canons of Dordrecht), and is also known as The BELGIC CONFESSION. It is traditionally accepted by the Reformed Churches and denominations.

Listen how it promotes the union of the church and the state. The civil government is not only to regulate, promote, and/or punish with sword civil matters, but religious matters as well.

XXXVI - Of Magistrates

We believe that our gracious God, because of the depravity of mankind, hath appointed kings, princes and magistrates, willing that the world should be governed by certain laws and policies< to the end that the dissoluteness of men might be restrained, and all things carried on among them with good order and decency. For this purpose he hath invested the magistracy with the sword, for the punishment of evil-doers, and for the protection of them that do well. And their office is, not only to have regard unto, and watch for the welfare of the civil state; but also that they protect the sacred ministry [of a Calvinist kind]; and thus may remove and prevent all idolatry and false worship [all other religious beliefs and expressions]; * that the kingdom of anti-christ may be thus destroyed [by sword and the stake] and the kingdom of Christ promoted."


And then, the modern Calvinist publishers have added this comment,
* This phrase, touching the office of the magistracy in its relation to the Church, proceeds on the principle of the Established Church, which was first applied by Constantine and afterwards also in many Protestant countries. HISTORY, however, does no support the principle of State domination over the Church, but rather the separation of Church and State.

Do you see what they say, "History ... does not support the principle" of Church-State union. So, it's not the Bible they are building their doctrine, but it is history that FORCES them to change their doctrine and practice, and adopt democratic, pluralistic, tolerant point of view (separation of church and state)! Meanwhile, in 16th and 17th century thousands of Anabaptists, Mennonites, Baptists, and Quakers suffered because of this Babylonian principle. Has the history continued to "support" union of church and state, Calvinists would still be teaching and practicing that. And persecuting the people of God.

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Wow, how did we end up so far off the topic??

But in reply to your criticisms of the Reformed view of the role of the civil magistrate, keep context in mind! This would be the role of the civil magistrate in a Christian nation! Clearly, the United States is not a "Christian nation," however, so the role of government in applying the death penalty to heretics does not apply where you are trying to apply it, Kathy.

In a nation where the law of the land mandated that the national religion be according to a certain doctrinal standard (as in Calvin's Geneva or Queen Mary's England), then the role of the civil magistrate in enforcing that law could be considered valid.

Certain English colonies were founded originally as "Presbyterian states" or "Congregationalist states" where the law of the land did specify what was to be believed and taught in churches. And in such governments the excerpt you cite would apply. But in a free nation where religious freedom is the law of the land, civil magistrates do not hold such power, and rightfully so.

Context is vital!

-Robin

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Robin,

I realize that the US does not apply the death penalty to heretics. The 'context' was to illustrate the difference between 'Anti-Calvinist' language and 'Calvinist' language, by comparing these two documents (which I did). Thankfully, I guess, America is a Deist Nation that welcomes plurality of beliefs and not a Christian nation [of a 'Calvinist kind']

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