And yet inspite of all your words, and man's sin nature, he still has a free will no matter how bound and releasable through the redemptive design, thus such will to choose is never fatalism the core of calvanism which does not seem to be God of the Bible however you slice it or reform it or sugar coat it. This is the difference from calvanism and armenianism. It could be construed as some sort of fantasy if this free will is touched by God. This is what we care about and what God discloses in the Garden. That not trusting in ourselves but God was the choice of the free will. It can even be said that is a work of man to think that such free will is actually altered by God, a fantasy. Holy Spirit works within those saved and moves the believer this way and that way with an ear to hear.
In reply to:[color:"blue"] At one time, I read a great number of Watchman Nee's books, and held great admiration for him, but I must tell you in all honesty that I read little or nothing in his works of the true Gospel I have described to you here and that the scriptures attest to from first to last. Indeed, the fact that Nee could make the statement he did about his "Spiritual Man", attesting to it's "perfection", and to do so late in his ministry, when all true believers have been humbled to a considerable degree, is a red flag of huge proportions as it reveals his blindness to his blindness.
It is your lack of knowledge and assumption here about the intent of Nee's statement. Men take principles and don't use them, instead of using them as life. This is the warning. A very powerful one at that. Surely you can understand this? That indeed this book was so well and comprehensively written that when you do reach such spiritual truth it is open to naysayers that do exactly what he warned them not to do as you are doing...here is a quote in the preface
"I confess there is much which is incomplete in this work" - preface 2 page 20 "I recognize that the work which seeks to uncover the wiles of the enemyu shall certainly incur hostility of the power of darkness and opposition of many" "I am just a man weakest of all men.........reveals my weaknesses" "obviously only those who have a need will be able to appreciate this book" - p 17 "others will look upon this book these truths as ideals and criticize them as inappropriate" "unless there is a need he will not find any problem solved throug reading these pages...this is what the reader must guard against" "deeper the truth the easier it is to become theoretical"
So the warning here is just because there is no need that you are aware of in yourself does not mean these matters of the redemptive design of deliverance from sin, self and supernatural. By the way the self is the natural party of the good self and the petty self.
In reply to:[color:"blue"] I don't know what God did in Watchman Nee's heart in those 20 years he spent in prison, from my recollection of the accounts I read, we know little of it. Perhaps he taught him the things that I have described here, I hope so; but I know this, what I have described here is the true Gospel in which "every mouth is stopped" before God and the sinner is abased in the dust and there is no free will, none what so ever.
Except one thing. You have changed scripture on the most vital point. Man's perfect free will given in the image of God. All that you say is true except this one point. God leads and prods but we resist if we so choose to, in having such freedom. Grace follows our being graceable and all that entails adhereing to the Word of God either consciously or subconsciously it is a requirment of resistable grace always and forever. Get through this, understand it, to receive it.
Abhore sin, but don't abhore God's gift of a free will to be used fully as God gave it in its fullness. And that requires getting rid of the notion of calvins irresistableness, limitedness, imputation, perseverance, and inability
A more pure stance is to say a different kind of persaverance, God given choice (in His image), conditional election, general atomemt resistible free will.
It starts at choice. When you lose site of this you lose sight of true grace coming in and it will be something not as authentic as it could have been because of this initial mistaken assumption.
The sweetness of God's grace and drawing is reduced if you reject our ability to refuse. Otherwise you are, in whatever degree, susceptible to certain fantasies. God's reigning reigns, never touching our free will. Drawing, but not touching. Do you see the difference? It is truly sweet to see the difference.<br><br>God gives to those whom He draws because they are drawable. He draws all, not all are drawable. It is so easy to misread scripture and turn everything into calvanism. But don't do it. <br><br>Noone does have free will apart from God's will. That is how we came into existsence in the first place. <br><br>"Our soul had not the capacity to rightly choose God over the flesh. " O but it does. How? Through God's grace.<br><br>He makes us alive in Christ because He regenerates us give us a new spirit quickens our conscience. How did He do this? By us choosing Him by our free will. When this happened when it first happened, it was there and then that we had His life that worked in us.<br><br>I think what Calvanism does wrong is it tries to explain before regeneration and equate it with the life of the regenerated.<br>Before regeneration all there was was man's sinful will, then God prepared a way back to Him. It was not until man accepted that way back did then provide for His inner working in our lives of real working within. Neat huh? The soul like a steward still yet though saved chould refuse much of God's movements within for he still retains the sinful nature that never goes away as the flesh wars against the spirit to shut in the spirit.
Dear Troy:<br><br>Your words prove the truth of what I wrote to you, as I feared would be the case, for your blindness to your blindness is written all over your response. As we are told in 1Cor2, something that T. A Sparks wrote on, but incorrectly, these things are foolishness to the "soulish" or natural man, because they are "spiritually discerned".<br><br>As I said before, may the Lord be pleased to remove your blindness, as it pleases Him.<br><br>Gerry
What blindness? <br><br>T. Austin Sparks agrees with me and Nee and Lewis and Murray and Meyer. I find them more spiritual because my spirit is touched more deeply by their words in connection to scripture. Truly grace at work.<br><br>Calvin is accussed as a hard cases stemming from puffed up fatalism selecteeism while aremeniasm seems to have it right.<br><br>Pentecostals are too into their emotion coming from gibberish fantasy.<br><br>These have been my findings observing others and my experience cross referencing the scriptures and the writers that seem more accurate to me of which there is a sort of group of writings through the centuries that seem to follow the same thinking of the Word having a deeper Christian life.<br><br>I have tried to bring out these writers here in the top two links to the best of my knowledge. <br>http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/<br><br>
Dear Troy:<br><br>You said:<br><br>"What blindness?"<br><br>I answer: The same blindness I had and we all have at some point. <br><br>You said:<br><br>"These have been my findings observing others and my experience cross referencing the scriptures and the writers that seem more accurate to me of which there is a sort of group of writings through the centuries that seem to follow the same thinking of the Word having a deeper Christian life."<br><br>I answer: I have read extensively all of the writers you mention and at one point, in my blindness, shared many of your current views of them and their writings and the "deeper life".<br><br>Then God graciously showed me their errors, and my blindness to them.<br><br>May He do the same for you.<br><br>Gerry<br>
I'm sure Gerry aka Acts2027 can and will answer you but in the mean time I'd like to tell you what the Bible says.
Arminians believe Christ that died on the cross for every individual person and thereby made it possible for every person to be saved. They also believe that Christ's death, apart from the choice of man, was not able to actually save anyone for many for whom He died are lost. If this is true then it all depends on man and God has to hope that man will choose Him. God wants to save them but man has to let Him. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/sad.gif" alt="sad" title="sad[/img]
However the Bible tells us that Christ died for only God's elect people and thereby actually obtained salvation for all those for whom He died. His death was a substitutionary satisfaction which actually took away the guilt of His chosen people.
Luke 19 10for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
John 10 14I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
John 10 26But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. (Notice it doesn't say you are My sheep because you believe but rather Scripture tells us you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.)
Acts 20 28Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
Romans 5 10For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Ephesians 5 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
Hebrews 9 12Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
1 Peter 3 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
Troy what you fail to realize is that a dead man cannot make any choices. A drowning man cannot choose to be saved. Unless the Spirit of God breathes life into the soul of man he cannot make any choices much less choose to be born again.
Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
Dear Troy,<br><br>Ok, so you say that our soul has the capacity to rightly choose God through His grace. Well I agree with that so far. God regenerates us and as a hymn says well, "Now freely chosen in the Son, I freely choose His ways." But then you go on to say:<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]He makes us alive in Christ because He regenerates us give us a new spirit quickens our conscience. How did He do this? By us choosing Him by our free will. When this happened when it first happened, it was there and then that we had His life that worked in us.<br></font><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>[img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/scratch.gif" alt="scratch" title="scratch[/img]<br><br>Hmmmmm, it seems to me that this statement is contradicting itself. You say that it is only once God regenerates us that we can rightly choose Him, but at the same time you are saying that God will only regenerate us once we choose Him. I'm certainly glad that this is not what scripture teaches, for nobody would ever be saved!<br><br>Please refrain from making declarations about what is and isn't right if you refuse to use the means by which God defines what is and isn't right. We are giving you a lot of scripture to look through. You say we misread scripture but fail to show us how. Your one effort to do this was weak at best (refereing to "He draws all, not all are drawable"). It infers information which isn't stated and that is not even hinted at in the Bible. If it is shown, then show us where? I am not claiming to be perfect or to know everything, but rather I wish, by God's grace to be teachable. I refuse, though, to be taught by anything but God's perfect Word.<br><br>Chris
HI Troy, Welcome to the Highway, I've been away from posting for a little while because work has been keeping me pretty busy, so I didn't quite catch when you came in. I might add as well, that we share first names, so I'll try not to get us confused!
"Our soul had not the capacity to rightly choose God over the flesh. " O but it does. How? Through God's grace
How did He do this? By us choosing Him by our free will.
Let's look at this statement a little more logically. You state that God gave mankind the ability to choose by their own free will because they chose Him. How did they choose Him by their own free will before God graciously gave that to them? That is what is called petitio principi, or, circular reasoning. It's like saying that the smurf is blue because it is blue. Not a valid point/argument.
Neat huh? The soul like a steward still yet though saved chould refuse much of God's movements within for he still retains the sinful nature that never goes away as the flesh wars against the spirit to shut in the spirit.
The sinful nature is the apex of the argument. If a person is sinful, by nature, then the ability to choose good, and, therefore, choose God, does not exist. the nature of a person is the underlying cause of everything a person does. If the underlying cause of a person choosing God is sinful... Do you see what I'm getting at? A sinful nature does not choose God. It is absurd to think that someone chose God sinfully, and then God chose him/her back. What is needed for salvation is a new heart (Ezek. 36:26,7), a resurrection from the dead (Eph. 2), a birth from non-existence into existence (John 3), etc.
He draws all, not all are drawable.
He draws all, not all are drawable, He cannot, then, draw the undrawable, therefore he doesn't draw all. Mass confusion! [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/dizzy.gif" alt="dizzy" title="dizzy[/img]
I would encourage you to think over everything that is being posted to you by the others on this board. There is a wealth of wisdom and knowledge from years and years of hard living, and study-time that totals definitely to more hours than I have even been alive. Most importantly, though return to the Scripture that is being quoted, true knowledge comes from above! May God allow us all to learn from this discussion. Troy S. GottseiEhre
Grace is but glory begun; Glory is but grace perfected! - Jonathan Edwards
Troy,<br><br>you said:<br>"Free will is perfect in its freeness. Free will's perfectness to choose free will is given by God. God did not give us perfect knowledge. God said don't eat of the tree of good and evil. Perfect free will needs to be given its perfect choice to sin having God made this perfect free will in His image." <br><br>That argument is invalid to prove your point.<br>I don't think you even know what a will entails much less what makes it perfectly free. Why was the will made perfect but not knowledge or power or wisdom or foreknowledge? <br><br>Likewise man will not choose to trust with his life what is foolishness to him. Therefore why do you expect man to be able to choose the gospel if it is foolishness to him? Belief isn't chosen and therefore neither can God. <br><br>Likewise your perfect free will has chosen not to address peoples questions and complaints. Such direct avoidance is watchman Nee's way? You may think the way you are interacting is proper but i think you are just plain rude. is that what Watchman nee taught, to be rude to others when they honestly seek answers?<br>
Dear Troy:<br><br>I have been specific, and every one else who has responded to you has been specific, as to the errors you, and Lewis, Nee, Sparks, Murray, the whole Keeswick following, and every "deeper life" and "free will" promoter of every description, embrace, and always have embraced. <br><br>As I said before there is no such thing as mans "free" will, it is in bondage to blindness, sin and the god of this world, who "blinds the minds" of his followers. It is a will, but it is not free. It has power, and it chooses, but it doesn't do so "freely" because it doesn't see things as they are.<br><br>You, being blind to what I'm saying, can't see the truth of it, and so you deny, refute, twist, turn, squirm, and contradict yourself and make every error of logic and manifest every symptom of confusion imaginable, and thus, are a perfect illustration of blindness to truth, for all but yourself, to see.<br><br>I do pray that the Lord will take pity on you and show you what only He can.<br><br>Perhaps if you spent a little less time defending yourself and fireing off glib answers and asked the Lord, as honestly as you can, that if perhaps we might be saying something that is true, even though you don't see it, that if He would show you any blindness that you have, for surely you must have some?; and any errors that these people might have taught you, for surely they weren't perfect in their knowledge?, didn't Paul say that now we see "darkly", including himself and you don't know more than Paul do you?; if you would ask Him to do so, to show you where you might have erred, perhaps this would be beneficial. I do this all the time when I am studying and interacting with people on the things of God, and sure enough, the Lord teaches me new things and shows me areas where I was wrong but thought I was right. <br><br>Perhaps this would be something you would consider?<br><br>Good night Troy, it's late here.<br><br><br><br>Gerry
Last edited by acts2027; Sat Jun 21, 200311:50 PM.
Why is it invalid? Can you sense the incredibleness in the perfectedness of a free will to choos sin nature or God's nature? How could somethin so righteous be anything less? Indeed it would not be so righteous if it were something less like destiny.<br><br>Why don't you think I know what a will entails? Just like there is laws of the spirit there are laws of the soul. In the soul it has its functions of mind will and emotion and the will has its respective functions made in the image of God.<br>The Souls Faculty of Volition<br><br>"Give me not up to the will (original, "soul") of my adversaries" Ps. 27.12<br><br>"Thou dost not give him up to the will (original, ,soul,) of his enemies" Ps. 41.2<br><br>"Delivered you to the greed (original, "soul") of your enemies" Ezek. 16.27<br><br>"You shall let her go where she will (original, "soul)" Dent. 21.14<br><br>"Aha, we have our heart's desire (original "soul")" Ps. 35.25<br><br>"Or swear an oath to bind himself (original, "soul") by a pledge" Num. 30.2<br><br>"Now set your mind and heart (original, "soul") to seek the <br><br>Lord your God" I Chron. 22.19<br><br>"They desire and lift up their soul to return to dwell there" Jer. 44.14 Amplified<br><br>"These afflictions my soul refuses to touch" job 6.7<br><br>Amplified "My soul chooseth strangling, death, rather <br><br>than my bones job 7.15 Darby<br><br>The "will or "heart" here points to the human will. "Set the heart," "lift up their soul," "refuse" and "choose" are all exercises of the will, having their springs in the soul.<br><br>Here are the attributes of the soul's will all typed out for us referencing scripture<br>http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/sprtmnv3/part9chapter1.htm<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Why was the will made perfect but not knowledge or power or wisdom or foreknowledge? </font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Because God lovingly knew we could not handle it. He had foreknowledge of this. Lets believe that such processing power to ascertain all knowledge is not a light thing of which only God has the skill to utilize envelope and operate and contain. But perfect will is simple thing, something we can handle, yea or nay. Is it pure, or is it not? yea or nay, what say you? trust me I am God God says eat this tree dont eat that tree, what say you, yea or nay. Such perfect free will. It all starts here from Him.<br>I understand God and why he did it this way. Because is the perfect way. Anything less would be uncivilized.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Likewise man will not choose to trust with his life what is foolishness to him. Therefore why do you expect man to be able to choose the gospel if it is foolishness to him? Belief isn't chosen and therefore neither can God. </font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Man's perfect free will is not foolish. Man chooses the gospel, though not all men, because the gospel is God's redemptive design for man's perfect free will to restore man to before the fall, even better than that, to before the fall and then to accept the tree of life tipified from Christ.<br><br>Choice is not dependent upon belief. Choice is perfect. Choice chooses freely given by God. God is accumulating those perfect free wills that choose Him whom believe because they chose under His given free will. For free will is made in the image of God following spirit perfectly, the pure function of conscience and pure function of intuition and pure function of communion in the spirit. Belief occurs because the choice is made to follow conscience and intuition and thus God, that is a conscience and inuition that is non offending and thus able to find God through choice. Choice is perfect. Choice makes the man and that man is either saved or going to hell, no two ways about it. Them who choose to believe and them who choose not to believe. When God created he chose to create. He also believed otherwise why would he believe if he did not choose in his perfect righteousness?<br><br>God will trust with His life what He created a perfect will to receive His life in the Garden and in Christ. Just because centuries have passed under bondage of sin does not mean that free will is not empowerd to choose. It may have a heck of a time but the way of salvation is made available now.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Likewise your perfect free will has chosen not to address peoples questions and complaints. Such direct avoidance is watchman Nee's way? You may think the way you are interacting is proper but i think you are just plain rude. is that what Watchman nee taught, to be rude to others when they honestly seek answers?</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Can you be more specific? what complaints, what questions? Avoidance is not my way nor Nee's way. <br>How am I rude?<br>How am I not helping you?<br>Help me to understand what it is you are asking from me? specifically<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>
<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]rminians believe Christ that died on the cross for every individual person and thereby made it possible for every person to be saved. They also believe that Christ's death, apart from the choice of man, was not able to actually save anyone for many for whom He died are lost. If this is true then it all depends on man and God has to hope that man will choose Him. God wants to save them but man has to let Him. </font><hr></blockquote><p><br>"for mankind" even every person, potentially. yes, choice of man. He can save them by his redemptive design. it is because of mercy that the redemptive design is employed still without touching man's free will even though they are lost but in that lost state through the redemptive design God has provided a way out of being lost that in the lost condition man can choose to come out even though in that lost stay man is depraved though of course not totally depraved as calvin surmises. sinful nature nor the evil spirit residing in man is enough to totally overthrow all men. that is how incredible free will is. it can beat the sinful nature and it can choose God inspite of the devil residing within and without. God does not have to hope. God knows such a perfect will made like His will choose Him otherwise he would have not begun the process to begin with. The only question remnains whom and how many. whatever that number be is is the righteous number of the fulness of the gentiles. that is all we have to go on and must trust because when the fullness comes in His parousia begins and he can finally return from the days of the garden to start to walk with man in the 1000 year reign of Christ with HIs overcomers. Yes man chooses, God gives the gift of eternal life. Man fulfills the conditions God set for His working. Man is not letting God do anything. God is dictating the parameters of it all. Do you see the difference?<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]However the Bible tells us that Christ died for only God's elect people and thereby actually obtained salvation for all those for whom He died. His death was a substitutionary satisfaction which actually took away the guilt of His chosen people. </font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Yes. those whom he foreknew would choose him under the law of perfect will in His image. He died for all the others too but He foreknew that they would not choose Him so in actuality his death did not reach them so His death was not for those who did not choose Him. last sentence, yes.<br><br>All those versese are good<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>[color:"blue"]Troy what you fail to realize is that a dead man cannot make any choices. A drowning man cannot choose to be saved. Unless the Spirit of God breathes life into the soul of man he cannot make any choices much less choose to be born again.</font><hr></blockquote><p><br>Dead means spirit insensitive to things of God. The will is not dead, just not renewed. The will under the state of non-rewal of regeneration still has the power to choose for God's life or not as it did at the tree of life. What gives man the power yet still inspite of the sin nature and the dead spirit is the deliverance of the redemptive design. Men though few of the OT had a new life and more so in the NT because of one thing. Christ death and resurrection both substitiion and codeath with Him made possible. If this choice was never made all men die. Through resurrected life all men could live but not all men choose this life.<br><br>Don't believe the mistaken assumption that man is so fargone he can't come back without exercising his free will to choose. Otherwise you sedate yourself into passivity of a calvanist exactly what he devil wants.<br><br>God has already breathed the breath of life into a man which became mans spirit and when that spirit touched the body from dust there was created a soul life and in that soul life a free will in the image of God. When man makes the choice for God through His Son right there and then God gives man a new life, a quickened sprit and God's life, all these 3 things. <br><br>It almost always comes back to tripartate man to help people Understand bipartate man is a fallen man in this first chapter<br>http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/sprtmnv1/1968c1p1.htm<br><br>Man is not dead, not yet though his spirit is dead, insensitive to things of God, he can yet give into the redemptive desing inspite of sin nature attacking from the outer and the evil spirit dwelliong within. How powerful God is to have forknown to give man a free will like His to overcome to accept Christ and give a way out of man's lost state.<br><br><br>
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Let's look at this statement a little more logically. You state that God gave mankind the ability to choose by their own free will because they chose Him. How did they choose Him by their own free will before God graciously gave that to them? That is what is called petitio principi, or, circular reasoning. It's like saying that the smurf is blue because it is blue. Not a valid point/argument.
They did not choose him before God graciously gave him the gift. They chose him after he gave them the gift of free will so it was always there to begin with to choose him and it was out of mercy through the redemptive design that He gave them an easier way out than the hardness of the law. Even some men were saved under the hardness of the law though so few. Do you see how it is no circular reasoning now?
In reply to:[color:"blue"] The sinful nature is the apex of the argument. If a person is sinful, by nature, then the ability to choose good, and, therefore, choose God, does not exist. the nature of a person is the underlying cause of everything a person does. If the underlying cause of a person choosing God is sinful... Do you see what I'm getting at? A sinful nature does not choose God. It is absurd to think that someone chose God sinfully, and then God chose him/her back. What is needed for salvation is a new heart (Ezek. 36:26,7), a resurrection from the dead (Eph. 2), a birth from non-existence into existence (John 3), etc.
Not true, just because the sinful nature exist does not mean it wins all the time. For man still retains something from the fall in his conscience likely because it can still know some good and evil however dead and insensitive to things of God. This is very profound to know this while man's intuition is dead and communion is dead the knowledge in the conscience is retained at least on some level. This is a more profound and exacting view of our condition today. So the sinful nature is not all of everything for the conscience still has something retained however shallow it is, it is enough with man's free will through the redemptive design to choose God unto salvation by His grace. All these things, new birth and all come after man accepts Christ, not before, that is why it is a redemptive design to lead man out without touching his being his willk, drawing always but not touching for the final decision is left up to man to come or not to come. Sinful nature is not the apex of the argument. It is the apex of the accumalation of garbage of mistaken assumptions is all it is.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]He draws all, not all are drawable, He cannot, then, draw the undrawable, therefore he doesn't draw all. Mass confusion! I would encourage you to think over everything that is being posted to you by the others on this board. There is a wealth of wisdom and knowledge from years and years of hard living, and study-time that totals definitely to more hours than I have even been alive. Most importantly, though return to the Scripture that is being quoted, true knowledge comes from above! May God allow us all to learn from this discussion.
He does not draw all because it is unrighteous of him to draw that which does not accept Him but He does all He can do to allow all willingly if all willing allow. Whether all willingly draw unto is out of God's righteous hands to tamper with past what is righteous, so here he stops any imingement. I would expect nothing less in a righteous God. Mass confusion does not exist at all. Do you see? I am clear, believe me. Are you? If so then we both worship a different Christ and a different God. Think that through.
What errors? IS specific meaning destiny and killing free will?
In reply to:[color:"blue"]As I said before there is no such thing as mans "free" will, it is in bondage to blindness, sin and the god of this world, who "blinds the minds" of his followers. It is a will, but it is not free. It has power, and it chooses, but it doesn't do so "freely" because it doesn't see things as they are.You, being blind to what I'm saying, can't see the truth of it, and so you deny, refute, twist, turn, squirm, and contradict yourself and make every error of logic and manifest every symptom of confusion imaginable, and thus, are a perfect illustration of blindness to truth, for all but yourself, to see.I do pray that the Lord will take pity on you and show you what only He can.
I agree under your god there is no such thing as free will, and that is why I am pretty sure we do not have the same God. It chooses freely to whatever it chooses WHATEVER it chooses. Yes it doesn't see things as they are so often but not 24/7 to the point of not being able to choose Christ. I can not accept your passivty if I am obedient to my Lord. I do not worry about your god taking pity on me or my God for it is merely a strategem of your god to employ tactically ownershp passivity of the will of its victims. All these other accusations I rebuke in the name of the Lord. Why I am I on this site? I am interested in the condition of calvanism and potential triggers for release. Likely with all beliefs if the person is not saved I can not iminge that free willk, I can coax and prod like God but that is all as I trying to contact your spirit. So lets get back to what error, what blindness, what squirming, what turn and what twist? Lets see what you got.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Perhaps if you spent a little less time defending yourself and fireing off glib answers and asked the Lord, as honestly as you can, that if perhaps we might be saying something that is true, even though you don't see it, that if He would show you any blindness that you have, for surely you must have some?; and any errors that these people might have taught you, for surely they weren't perfect in their knowledge?, didn't Paul say that now we see "darkly", including himself and you don't know more than Paul do you?; if you would ask Him to do so, to show you where you might have erred, perhaps this would be beneficial. I do this all the time when I am studying and interacting with people on the things of God, and sure enough, the Lord teaches me new things and shows me areas where I was wrong but thought I was right.
How am I defending myself? I need no defense, I am already defended. What glib answers? I have prayed, have you? If so is it not possible then we are praying to two different Gods? what people? I am taught by the Holy Spirit men are not perfect in their knowledg that is correct No I don't see more than paul, how does that help you to tell me this? Have you asked the Lord where you might have erred? You seem confident. Therefore may I suggest we are praying to two different Gods? I have prayed to my God and He says the same thing - there is a demon of calvanism, whatever name he goes by he kills free will puffed up and could be a false regeneration. What do you think? Do you think God is playing a boardgame all by himself or do you think He made some new players to walk with just like Him with an always untouched free will so he does not pick and choose but lets his creation choose, that is real life.
My God prefers it this way. Yours prefers it you way. Mine is lie a parent a Father who guides his children but never replaces them for how can He, he is not them. Yours is like a programmer who programs all the participations dead machine system
Now that is some major revelation eh? whew!! That was blessing.
