In reply to:[color:"blue"]Hmmmmm, it seems to me that this statement is contradicting itself. You say that it is only once God regenerates us that we can rightly choose Him, but at the same time you are saying that God will only regenerate us once we choose Him. I'm certainly glad that this is not what scripture teaches, for nobody would ever be saved!Please refrain from making declarations about what is and isn't right if you refuse to use the means by which God defines what is and isn't right. We are giving you a lot of scripture to look through. You say we misread scripture but fail to show us how. Your one effort to do this was weak at best (refereing to "He draws all, not all are drawable"). It infers information which isn't stated and that is not even hinted at in the Bible. If it is shown, then show us where? I am not claiming to be perfect or to know everything, but rather I wish, by God's grace to be teachable. I refuse, though, to be taught by anything but God's perfect Word.
No, I said once we choose him He can then regenerate us. We have to walk through that door. He can open it. He can even have a valeh driver and a doorman (his angels) but He can not put us through that door. I won't reply to your confusion since it held a piece of mistaken assumption of what I believe. What have I chosen that is not right? You can cite the whole Bible but if you read it wrong whom are you really reading it for? You say I have not shown you how but have I not commented on each verse you reference? How have I not shown you how? I am speaking just letting the Holy Spirit flow out.
You said it infers information which isn't stated and that is not even hinted in the Bible? What is does it infer that isn't stated? What is not hinted in the Bible? You keep asking for where is it shown in the Bible. It is shown in the Bible. See John 1.12-13.
It says RECEIVE
First receive before believing. He gave power to these who believe.
Why these?
foreknew they would receive
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
You keep looking for evidence. But you should know it already in your heart and spirit. Why don't you is the question that I ponder? I am not so foolish to think Calvins worship a different god but I wish not to believe this. I wish to hope that it is a matter of pride only or calvinistic possession but the longer I speak to folks who hold this view, like conversations with Pentecostals, the more I am of the opinion since they simply can not understand what I am saying begins to lead me to the conclusion that indeed it is becoming no longer a condition of just some pride of salvation and pride of life and vanity of vanities but it is a matter of unsalvation because if you can not understand and it takes this much effort to get you to understand and you still can not understand then what are we really dealing with?
I should ever expect you to believe what I believe because as 1 Cor. 2.13 says
And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
Adam did not choose Satan, Adam choose natural affection for Eve. Adam knew what he was doing but did it anyway for affection. Eve did it under a darkened mind not trusting God. They did it not for Satan but for themselves. They were deceived. Showing they are not God just man and a woman, weak.
Don't blame God for man's sin. That is what the serpent does. So is this what calvin is doing?
Here to help too but in a different way.
Why do you think so little of free will? I can see in rejecting this perfect image of God you passify yourself into believing a god without testing the spirits and prides oneself in being chosen, plus it seems cold that God is only playing a boardgame with himself (which is why you are hard) instead of looking forward to that day He will walk with His chidren that chose their parent's life.
Here is something: If you consider perfect free will a peddling then what does that say of this God who gave the perfect will, and of the god that gives not its participants a choice when it comes right down to it as that child gets smulched in the windmill who did not listen but was saved anyway. I can see how this makes one less meaningful in their relationshp with God since he was not obedient and he was saved anyway, he did not believe but he was saved anyway. This is a cold mechanised man-made system fantasy of Christianity I can't accept. How can you is the question?
Don't you all feel deathly cold thinkers? Opposite of Pentecostals dealthly cold feelers. Perhaps there is another part of the soul that is truly free to self-will or choose the Son no matter the attack upons its sovereignty it is free to choose. Does it seem this is being taken away under calvanism? If so what beinefit would Satan gain? If Satan can convince you that there is no "free" will then maybe he can convince you to be drawn into a REPLICATOR of the Trinity which is the unholy trinity thinking you are worshiping Jesus Christ when it could be jesus destiny? I do the same thing with Pentecostals. I say are you worshipping Jesus the Word or Jesus the gibberish?
What do you think? Make sense? Have I touched someone's inner man on this?
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Don't believe the mistaken assumption that man is so fargone he can't come back without exercising his free will to choose. Otherwise you sedate yourself into passivity of a calvanist exactly what he devil wants.
My heart goes out to you. You just don't get it do you? [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/sad.gif" alt="sad" title="sad[/img]
If man's free will didn't truely die in the garden of eden upon choosing to sin against God then man wouldn't need rebirth. However Jesus said, "You must be born again."
You may think you have a free will but you are following a form of doctrine which appeals to man's fallen will and depends on man's own logic. Unless one is truely born from above he shall never see how great a salvation God has provided in His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. In salvation God will receive all the glory because that which was dead is now made alive by God's grace alone. Amazing Grace how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. John 1:13 tells us that we must be born again from above, by the will of God, not by the will of man.
OBTW Calvinism is not a passive form of Christianity. Calvinism is Biblical Christianity! It centers on who God is, unlike Arminianism which centers on man and his supposed "free" will. Man is nothing: he has a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do His good pleasure.
May God be merciful to you.
Wes
When I survey the wondrous cross on which the Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss and pour contempt on all my pride. - Isaac Watts
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Even some men were saved under the hardness of the law though so few.
Where is your Scriptural basis for this?
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Do you see how it is no circular reasoning now?
Since you haven't presented any Scriptural evidence, no. You have only restated the same thing again, without the explanation of how, which was the circular argument.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]...just because the sinful nature exist does not mean it wins all the time.
Check your definitions, [b]by nature/[b]. In an unchanged person, who has not been raised up with Christ (Eph 2), there is only the sinful nature. Only. There is nothing else to win any time. Your view of sin, and the sinfulness of man is too weak.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]that is why it is a redemptive design to lead man out without touching his being his willk,
Man's will is preeminent? Only in secular humanism, not Christianity. Do you remember the Lord's Prayer?
In reply to:[color:"blue"] This is very profound to know this while man's intuition is dead and communion is dead the knowledge in the conscience is retained at least on some level.
So, what you are saying is that what man is doing at a particular moment is what makes him good or bad at that particular moment? A new creation in Christ is affected in every part of his/her being, not just one moment at a time, but continuously. There is no neutrality in mankind. We make choices based on our strongest inclinations at the time of the choice, but our strongest inclinations are decided by our nature. Before we are born again from above, and our nature is changed, our strongest inclination will be always evil continuously all the time (Romans 3).
In reply to:[color:"blue"]He does not draw all because it is unrighteous of him to draw that which does not accept Him but He does all He can do to allow all willingly if all willing allow.
If God does all He can do and fails, He is not omnipotent. We do not serve a weak God. If someone must alow God top do things, that someone would be taking the place of God, and God is no longer all-powerful.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]I am clear, believe me. Are you? If so then we both worship a different Christ and a different God. Think that through.
You are clear on what? Describing why your belief is valid? No, that can't be it since not a single person here has been convinced. Or, is it that you are clear to yourself on what this particular writer has said. Yes, Troy, we worship a different Christ and God, and I am concerned for your soul. I will be praying for God to work in your life.
Grace is but glory begun; Glory is but grace perfected! - Jonathan Edwards
Ok now we can actually (hopefully) have fruitful debate. [img]http://www.the-highway.com/w3timages/icons/clapping.gif" alt="clapping" title="clapping[/img] Thanks for using scripture, you were really starting to scare me with all of your answers that had no scriptural basis. Unfortunately, though, the scripture you use here is out of context, and I will show you why.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]No, I said once we choose him He can then regenerate us. We have to walk through that door. He can open it. He can even have a valeh driver and a doorman (his angels) but He can not put us through that door. I won't reply to your confusion since it held a piece of mistaken assumption of what I believe. What have I chosen that is not right? You can cite the whole Bible but if you read it wrong whom are you really reading it for? You say I have not shown you how but have I not commented on each verse you reference? How have I not shown you how? I am speaking just letting the Holy Spirit flow out.
I apologize if you think that i mistakenly assumed what you believed. I still stand firm in what I said though. You say that I misread scripture. If that is the case, show me how the scripture that I gave you means something else. I am ready and willing to listen. You ask "How have I not shown you how?" Just as I said, you have not shown me how, in that you haven't commented on the scripture. I don't think I can answer that any more clearly.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]You said it infers information which isn't stated and that is not even hinted in the Bible? What is does it infer that isn't stated? What is not hinted in the Bible? You keep asking for where is it shown in the Bible. It is shown in the Bible. See John 1.12-13.
It says RECEIVE
First receive before believing. He gave power to these who believe.
In all of scripture it will either talk about man's responsibility in salvation, God's election in salvation, or both. The word 'power' there is the greek word exousia. It can be rightly translated as authority, power, or right. I have no problem with this scripture. He gives the right to become children of God to those who receive them, even those that believe in His name. You say that receiving comes before believing, but notice the syntax:
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."
"To those..." is an infinitive, it denotes that something is happening and that it happens to somebody or something. In this case the thing happening is that God is giving the right, authority, power to become sons of God. To whom is it happening? "As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name." See? The infinitive occurs twice and describes the same thing. The second time simply expounds on the first.
Ok, moving on...
In reply to:[color:"blue"]Why these?
foreknew they would receive
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
This one really baffles me. Here I will post some more of this scripture so we can get some context:
1. I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3. 'Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.' 4. But what is the devine response to him? 'I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to baal.' 5. In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. 6. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8. just as it is written, 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.' 9. And David says, 'Let their table become a snare and a trap, and a stumbling block and a retribution to them. 10. Let their eyes be darkened to see not, and bend their backs forever.'"
I don't think you could have chosen a better scripture to put out of context than this one, Troy. Notice that the scripture goes on to say that God kept for Himself seven thousand men that would not bow the knee to baal. An active role on God's part it shows. Now the same in this present time, a remnant remains according to God's gracious choice. It goes on to expound that those who were chosen obtained it (salvation) and those who were not chosen were hardened. This is not something that man, by nature would like to believe. I, myself, was an Armenian before I even knew what that word meant. When I saw scriptures like this it made me mad, but in the end it came down to either I was going to believe in a god that I created on the basis of what I wanted him to be like, or I would believe in the God that declares Himself in His scriptures.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]You keep looking for evidence. But you should know it already in your heart and spirit. Why don't you is the question that I ponder? I am not so foolish to think Calvins worship a different god but I wish not to believe this. I wish to hope that it is a matter of pride only or calvinistic possession but the longer I speak to folks who hold this view, like conversations with Pentecostals, the more I am of the opinion since they simply can not understand what I am saying begins to lead me to the conclusion that indeed it is becoming no longer a condition of just some pride of salvation and pride of life and vanity of vanities but it is a matter of unsalvation because if you can not understand and it takes this much effort to get you to understand and you still can not understand then what are we really dealing with?
I'll tell you why I don't believe what you believe, as you ponder...because there is no basis for it in scripture. I am still waiting for a valid arguement with scripture. And you are right, sadly Troy, that we worship different gods. As far as it being a matter of pride, I will admit that I am prideful and have many faults. But it is through God's Holy Spirit guiding me in His word that He humbles me. Calvinism doesn't cause pride, but rather it makes us humble. Think about it. If you were chosen before the foundations of the world and God redeems you on no merit of your own but only on the substitutionary redemptive work of His Son Jesus, who bore the full penalty of sin and expreienced the full wrath of God so that you didn't have to...would this make you prideful? It makes me fall to my knees in tears that my God should die for me. I hope that makes more sense to you now. I do know that there are many things in life and in scripture that I have yet to understand, but what I have read has been clear to me. You say I don't understand what we're really dealing with, and I say that I do.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]I should ever expect you to believe what I believe because as 1 Cor. 2.13 says
And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
I was distressed when I first read this that you would declare that I do not have the Holy Spirit. But as I read your post over again, and read the context of the scripture you gave, I soon was relieved from that distress. I have no doubt about the surity and security of my salvation, and I have no doubt of the Holy Spirit being active in my life, weather you think it is or not.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]You keep looking for evidence. But you should know it already in your heart and spirit. Why don't you is the question that I ponder?
You have used one word, out of one verse, out of one chapter, out of one book of the Bible; Receive. This proves nothing. Is a gift yours only after you receive it, or after it has been purchased for you?
In reply to:[color:"blue"]And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
These words used by Paul in asserting His apostleship do not apply to you or Nee, or to me. It speaks of the words of the Epistle, that we know in heart and Spirit that they are true because of the Spirit's work in validating them to us. Excellent point for the infallibility of Scripture, but still doesn't help your weak argument any.
Grace is but glory begun; Glory is but grace perfected! - Jonathan Edwards
Heh, I've tried to keep mudslinging out of this. I hoped that we could have just debated the meaning of scripture, but I finally see that this may not happen. I see this mainly because you call us 'thinkers'. To answer you post. I do not feel deathly cold, but rather assured of my salvation. We are the opposite of Pentecostals? Odd, I guess you just 'think' no wait, maybe that's a bad word...you're not a thinker, right? Ok, I guess you 'feel' that we have no feelings. Am I right in 'thinking' this?
Man is has three aspects to him: Thinking, Feeling, and Doing. Yes I think (although probably not enough), yes I feel (again I could get better in this area), and yes I act on what I think and feel (again I could get better here as well). Just because we wish to search the scriptures doesn't mean that we don't have feelings. As I said in my last post, discovering God's truth in His word brings me often times to tears.
I am not, again, going to respond to your attack on the sovereignity of God, for you haven't answered my other responses with valid scripture. Yes I do worship Jesus, the Word:
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God. 2. He was in the beginning with God. 3. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that ahs come into being. 4. In Him there was life, and the life was the Light of men."
In reply to:[color:"blue"] Have I touched someone's inner man on this?
Sorry, no. The balance of life is in combining thought, felling and action. These can only be shown in how we live consistent with what we know. Sadly, on a discussion board as such, there is no way to show much more than the thinking side. Nonetheless, on the action side, i think you can learn from reactions to what you post, people here are genuinely concerned with your spiritual being. If we were "deathly cold thinkers," that would not be the case.
In reply to:[color:"blue"]...you are worshiping Jesus Christ when it could be jesus destiny?
This is a caricature of what we believe. Destiny is a Zen idea that points to an impersonal fate. We serve a personal God who orders all things for His purpose even the evil for its day (Prov.16:4, the entire book of Job). There is nothing outside of the influence of God.
Grace is but glory begun; Glory is but grace perfected! - Jonathan Edwards
I believe you are correct when you say that we are praying to different God's.
I say that because I have read and believed, by His Grace only, what God has revealed in His inerrant word, the Scriptures of truth. Those scriptures repeatedly reveal God's right to choose some and leave others, and they also reveal his Glory and Beauty and Justice and Love in doing so. You don't like that because it offends your pride, so you ignore and attempt, in a most confused manner, to explain away all the verses that deal with the Doctrines of Grace, and most sadly, you tell us those doctrines are the doctines of devils. In keeping with his usual practice, the adversary is, through you, "calling light darkness and darkness light".
May He deliver you from that darkness.
By the way, Troy, please don't bother to respond to this post, it will be a waste of your precious time, for until the Spirit comes along side and begins to reveal your error to you, which will be evident in a change of attitude toward the truth, I can do nothing else to help you.
