The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Does God force men to sin?

I grew up in a non-Christian home and suffer from attention deficit(not officially diagnosed). I seem to have very strong Calvinist leanings, but having gotten such a late start, have much to learn. Arminians on other forums seem to despise Calvinism. The animosity between the two groups stresses me. Do Calvinists blame their sins on God? Does God control every single action of ours including what we have for breakfast?

My husband is tolerant of my beliefs but not interested in believing as I do. Our pastor is Arminian.

I joined this site because I'm hoping it's a safe place to learn about Calvinism. Thanks.

Lynda

First, a warm welcome to the Discussion Board.

Secondly, yes there is lots to learn but you are among good company. The main website of The Highway has 1600+ articles, books and sermons which should give you a good start to learn what Calvinism IS. If you are looking for something in particular and can't find it using the Search feature on the main page and in the "Calvinism and the Reformed Faith" section, just ask here. We can provide links. And of course, there is a wonderful community of folks here on the forums who can help as well as God has enabled us to do so.

Thirdly, the animosity is to be expected. We believe in a different God, a different Jesus, a different Holy Spirit, and a different Gospel than what Arminianism teaches. The chasm is wide and the history that divides stretches back since man was created. It is something you are going to have to accept but you will eventually come to understand.

Fourthly, re: "Do Calvinists blame their sins on God?" This is one of those typical and ridiculous charges that Arminians make against Calvinists, mainly due to their ignorance of what Calvinism teaches. But to answer your question, the answer is a resounding "NO!"... of course we don't blame God for our sins. We are sinners by nature and thus we sin freely and willfully. The guilt is all ours.

Fifthly, re: "Does God control every single action of ours including what we have for breakfast?" You betcha! We don't believe in "Deism". The God of the Bible is sovereign over all things. Not the tiniest molecule is free from His providence. There is nothing made nor anything that happens that God hasn't foreordained. All things are His and they exist for His magnificent glory.

In His grace,

Thank you!


Thank you. Most of what I've learned about Calvinism has come from online articles, particularly reformed.org.


This is why I'm here.


I didn't know this and it's going to be VERY hard for me to swallow. I have believed that modalists and any non-Trinitarian cults do not worship the one true God, but I thought all Trinitarians worshipped the same God.


This is where I get confused. If God controls everything and is stronger than Satan, why is He not not ultimately responsible for the existence of sin? I'm not posing this an argument against Calvinism, but, rather, I'm trying to understand it.


Now I'm more confused. I would have no hope at all if I were only a Deist. But I thought that God orchestrated only our spiritual lives and that we still made choices each day. This is probably where I blew it speaking to an Arminian.

So does all this mean that a person isn't saved until he becomes a Calvinist?

I'm on my way out the door... But, I'm planning on answering your further questions when I return, D.v. Of course there are others here too just as capable of doing so and perhaps they will also chime in.

God created Adam with the ability to sin and the ability to not sin but not with the ability to never sin. Adam was free to chose between obeying God or disobeying God. God didn't force Adam to sin... He decreed/foreordained that Adam would sin but Adam did it most freely. To help understand this truth I quoted Acts 4:26-28 which I will quote again the last two verses and I will add Acts 2:23:

Acts 2:23 (ASV) "him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:"

Acts 4:27-28 (ASV) "for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together, to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass."

These are probably the most revealing texts that one could find on this subject. Peter, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit says that all who were involved in the crucifixion of Christ did so by the eternal foreordination of God. Not only did God foreordain the crucifixion of Christ but every detail of it down to who would drive the nails into his hands and feet. AND, at the same time and equally true is the fact that these people did so most freely, without external compulsion, with no violation to their will. In short, they willingly and freely did what they did according to their own choice. God didn't force them to do this horrible act. The guilt is all their own. Thus God ordained the fall of Adam and Eve but they alone are culpable and guilty for their transgression.

Read through Romans 9 and pay careful attention first to the "questions" which Paul addresses concerning God's divine power and authority (right) to do what He does in the matter of salvation and then you will better understand Paul's answers.

For a great set of answers to this question of God being the alleged "Author of Sin" and others very similar to it, see here: Objections to the Doctrine of Predestination

Let's run with this idea to see how it works out, okay? But I must ask what it means that "God orchestrated only our spiritual lives"? As for God not (implied) orchestrating everything else then how does this everything occur... by chance? Is there no relationship between events that occur in life? If God has no control over the everyday choices of men then can there be anything that is certain? Question: How could the OT prophets be certain that what they prophesied would ever come to pass? Is God taken by surprise when you decide to take route 39N instead of 55S to reach a destination? Is God helplessly watching from His throne as men murder unborn babies? Was God simply a spectator during the holocaust? Was Christ crucified against God's will? Catching on here?

Men have the ability to make choices they being created in the image of God. But those choices are governed by their nature. AND, all the choices they make have all been ordained and are directed by God according to His eternal counsel, good pleasure and divine providence. (See the passages quoted in my first reply). Here are a few more:

[quote]Proverbs 19:21 (ASV) "There are many devices in a man's heart; But the counsel of Jehovah, that shall stand."

Proverbs 21:30 (ASV) "There is no wisdom nor understanding Nor counsel against Jehovah."

Psalms 37:23 (KJV) "The steps of a [good] man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way."

Proverbs 16:1 (ASV) "The plans of the heart belong to man; But the answer of the tongue is from Jehovah."

Proverbs 16:9 (ASV) "A man's heart deviseth his way; But Jehovah directeth his steps."

No! And not all who profess to be Calvinists are saved either. However, IF <---- an Arminian truly believes what he/she professes theologically/doctrinally, then at least at the time of that profession they cannot be saved. Sin is a terrible thing and one of the myriad results of sin is this occasional bifurcation between the head and the heart. The inconsistency can only be known by dialog, questions, probing and the person's answers. Unfortunately, the vast majority of professing Christians today on BOTH sides of the theological chasm are unregenerate. Right doctrine does NOT save... but one cannot be saved without holding to right doctrine.

In His grace,

I thought that God did not orchestrate what clothing we would wear on a certain day or what food we would eat.

I certainly do understand that my coming to Christ was not by chance because I am the only one of six children who has come to Christ.

I do appreciate all your time and effort to teach me.


I think I understand what you are saying. So is one Calvinist church more right than others?

And why would God's providence not be over all that He has created and decreed from all eternity? There is a phenomena called, "cause and effect". I'm sure you are familiar with this, right? As an example, aren't we all taught that there are always consequences for the choices we make? "Jane!", the mother says loudly to her daughter, "I'm warning you! "If you tease your brother one more time, you will be restricted to your room for a week!!!" Now, what if there was even one individual whose everyday actions God didn't foreordain and by His providence control? Let's presuppose that God wanted to keep you alive until the ripe old age of 95. And what if you were driving to the grocery store and this one lone "uncontrolled" individual decides to run a stop sign and hits you broadside at 50 mph and you are killed? Are you beginning to see the problem here when you have ANYTHING... One rogue molecule that isn't under God's sovereignty.

How could God bring you to Christ if you were killed before you were converted? Doesn't God have to have control over everything to make sure that all the means by which you were brought to Christ were sure? Again, I must direct you back to the crucifixion of Christ and how Peter describes this event in Acts 2:23; 3:18 and 4:27, 28. Is it even conceivable that all that was prophesied thousands of years beforehand could have actually happened exactly as God, through the prophets, said it would if God had not only ordained all things but providentially controlled every single thing? Peter says He did.

Especially in these recent times there is a great diversity within churches of all stripes; Calvinist and Arminian/semi-Pelagian. We are living in a time when heresy is being brought into the Church through its members, which is most always where heresy comes from; within vs. without. The Calvinist churches today are quickly forsaking their heritage and the doctrines that they even still profess to believe but deny in practice. The errors are in myriad forms, e.g., worldly contemporary worship, women in office, preaching another Gospel, denial of the "Five Solas" particularly "Sola Fide" (justification by faith alone) via NPP and Federal Vision, etc., etc., ad nauseam. No longer can one have confidence that all the congregations within a denomination are sound. ALL denominations are having problems to one degree or another. One has to examine each local assembly carefully in order to determine its soundness. This is one of the reasons for our having a Church Locator Forum to help people find a reasonably sound church.

But again ALL of this falling away has been eternally foreordained by God to serve His purpose in bringing the Church, the Bride of Christ to its final meeting with Him. He is purging the dross, sweeping the threshing floor as He has often done in history past. This too shouldn't be of any surprise for isn't this exactly what the apostle Paul and Peter warned would happen; even in their own day?

In His grace,

I get it.



I see.

"Thirdly, the animosity is to be expected. We believe in a different God, a different Jesus, a different Holy Spirit, and a different Gospel than what Arminianism teaches. The chasm is wide and the history that divides stretches back since man was created. It is something you are going to have to accept but you will eventually come to understand."

I am new to this discussion board, and am not trying to rude or confrontational. However, this comment couldn't be anything further from the truth.

First, animosity is to be expected between Calvinists and Arminians for the same reason that animosity is to be expected for any two groups that have differing perspectives.

Second, it is absolutely incorrect that Armininians and Calvinists "believe in a different God, a different Jesus, a different Holy Spirit . . ." Both Arminians and Calvinists believe in the same God, the same Jesus, the same Holy Spirit, and the same Gospel. What differs, however, between these two groups is their perspectives on certain doctrines e.g. election, predestination, etc. BUT <--- just because one's perspective is different does not mean that they are not worshipping the same God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, etc. And, I say this only because what you said makes it sound like Calvinist are worshipping the one true God, and Arminians are worshipping some god (emphasis on the lowercase "g"). This is not the case. Both groups believe in the God of Abraham and Isaac, the God who delivered the Israelites out of Egypt, and the God who sent His only Son down from Heaven to forgive us of our sins.

Thirdly, how could you say that the Arminians are preaching/teaching a different Gospel. The Gospel is the same on both fronts: God sent His Son to Earth to save mankind. Believe, and repent.

Fourthly, in all seriousness the chasm is not that wide between the Arminians and Calvinists; the more I study both positions the more I realize that the "chasm" is more like a small crack in the sidewalk. Both groups still believe the same Bible--it's not like one is reading/studying/believing the Bible, and the other the Koran. Nor has the debate between Armininians and Calvinists has not streatched back to before Man was created.

In conclusion, I appear to be defending the Arminian position, which is not what I am here to do, nor am I hear to defend the Calvinist position (I lean towards Calvinisim, but see the Arminian postion as well, and was such have been/am studying both positions). Lastly, I have said all this because some of the things that you have said makes it sound like you must be Calvinist if you are a true Christian because as you said they are "worshipping a differnt God, a different Jesus . . ." and that is not the case at all!

We have had this discussion a few times before on this site. Some of us would say that Calvinism is the gospel and thus, all non-Calvinists believe "another gospel."

The gospel is God's message about Jesus, not the "technical manual" on how and when His work was and is accomplished.

But that's not what our friends mean when they say "Calvinism is the Gospel." They are describing the difference between monergism and synergism - whether election and saving faith and conversion are some sort of collaboration between God and men as "equal partners" who come to an agreement, or whether salvation is solely and entirely God's merciful act upon those He has chosen, who are helpless to agree to anything, held heart and soul in bondage.

So the simpler question might be: Can a person who believes himself to be an "equal partner" with God in deciding his own fate truly be a follower of Jesus? Is such a person truly converted who can still deny the absolute sovereignty of God and relying solely upon His mercy and grace? Can a person be saved relying on his own merit (at least the merit of having had the good sense to choose Christ) as much as he does on God's grace?

Nope.

And in that sense, to be sure, Calvinism is what one must eventually come to in order for his faith to be in Christ alone, by grace alone.

First, welcome to the Discussion Board.

Just a reminder, this is a board that embraces and defends historic Christianity, aka: Calvinism which was rediscovered and came to life once again by God's mercy and providence through the Protestant Reformation. So, we can say accurately and historically, that true Christianity is that which is Protestant vs. all other religions. The doctrines of true Protestantism are antithetical to ALL other systems for no other reason than Protestantism holds to a monergistic salvation vs. a synergistic salvation.

Right off the starting block we are going to have to make a correction/clarification. The difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is decidedly NOT one of differing perspectives. Why?

1. By saying that the difference between the two systems is only one of perspective you have to deny absolute truth for something cannot be true and not true at the same time. One of the systems is assuredly in error for they are contradictory at their very foundation.
2. If one maintains that the difference is one of perspective then at best this means that both groups are grasped only part of the whole concerning the doctrines of God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, faith, regeneration, the Fall, salvation, a world cosmology, etc., etc. But again this cannot be the case! (see #a)
3. To maintain that God's truth is simply one of perspective, that puts man as the arbitrator of all truth. Again, this cannot be true for truth is to be found external to man, i.e., it is revealed from God and God alone. (cf. Jh 14:6: 17:17 et al)

All you have done here is to affirm your thesis; both groups believe in the same God. You haven't offered any proof whatsoever to substantiate your proposition. What you have given are very general statements which even JW's and Mormons could affirm. If one reverts to reductionism as appears above, then there is little difference between many religions which we all know are antithetical to Christianity.

Again, you have succumbed to reductionism, aka: a "dumbed down gospel". There is an impassable chasm which separates the "gospel" of Arminianism and the Gospel of Calvinism. This antithesis was dealt with on a global scale in 1618-1619 at the great Synod of Dordt. The followers of Arminius submitted a remonstrance to the Church which consisted of five "grievances" concerning the doctrines held by all the churches of that day. The subjects of that remonstrance were the doctrine of God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Fall, faith, regeneration, salvation, predestination/election, the atonement and perseverance. Much more was affected of course but these were the main areas of disagreement. The antagonists KNEW that the differences were not one of perspective but fundamental issues of biblical truth. The defenders of the Church concluded after many months of deliberation that Arminianism was not simply another perspective but gross error. In fact it was judged to be damnable heresy. Thus history stands against your current position.

Honestly, and I don't mean to be rude or insulting, but IF you seriously see the two systems as being very close to each other (like a small crack in the sidewalk), then you have failed to grasp what either system teaches.

Now, because of the nature of this topic to be able to do justice to it I suggest that it be broken down into small bits, as it were. I propose that I start a new thread for the discussion of 1) the doctrine of God; comparing what Arminianism (or current semi-Pelagianism) teaches vs. historic Protestantism (aka: Calvinism) teaches. I hope to see you participate in that first topic.

In His grace,

I certainly don't believe that I brought myself to God. I will thoughtfully consider what you have said.

Forgive me for not posting a speedy reply. I have been on vacation. I am running into those who hate determinism and I'm soooooooooo uneducated that I want to know what I should read to defend determinism(I hope I'm intelligent enough to understand what I read). Does Genesis 22:12 suggest that God is not ominiscient and not sovereign? Please remember that I'm not arguing against those attributes of God. I'm seeking information in order to defend the faith.

Oh, I'm interested! But I admit to not understanding all this as I barge into it. I do not believe that the two systems are really compatible and that makes it very difficult for me to attend my husband's Arminian church. My thoughts have been that one can be brought to Christ before understanding all of Calvinist beliefs or knowing that I had no say in my decision to follow Christ. Am I not a Christian? Or did I become a Christian when I realized that I didn't in anyway bring myself to Christ?

"Now I know," says the Lord, "that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son..." may seem to suggest that God didn't know Abraham's heart until this test.

The Apostle James helps clarify this a little in his epistle:


I think this shows the test had more to do with strengthening Abraham's faith and assurance in God than it did with providing God with an opportunity to "learn something He didn't know."

Great questions, by the way, and I'm glad you asked it!

Certainly one can be brought to Christ without the full instruction and official endorsement as a Certified Calvinist. A Reformed pastor friend of mine was brought to Christ as a result of Benny Hinn's false ministry! He knew nothing of sovereign grace (nor of the true gospel, really). But he did get a sense of his own unworthiness and helplessness, guilt before a Holy God, and reliance upon a Substitute, Christ, for the rescue of his soul.