The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Sign Gifts

I am having a conversation with someone who says they believe in Sola-Scriptura, but doesn't believe that a gift such as prophecy adds to the Bible.
I am including his exact quote, just so what he is saying is understood. I am trying to formulate a good answer to him; however I can't seem to think of a good way to answer him.
Any help I can get on that would be helpful.


Tom

Peter quoted the prophet Joel accurately. The Apostles are considered to be inspired interpreters of the Old Testament, so when Peter said , "THIS (what you see and hear) what was spoken by the prophet Joel (Acts 2:16)."

It also depends on what one means by the term "last days." Clearly the Apostles believed they were in the "last days" two millennia ago. Yet we haven't seen the celestial signs and wonders in the eath and heavens that Joel described since 70 AD. Last days? Yes, the last days of the Old Covenant. The last days of the Temple, the last of the obsolete shadows, now replaced by the Substance of Christ.

Another question is how to Charismatics define prophecy? Scripture defines it as the infallible, inspired utterance of God Himself through a prophet, and prescribes the death penalty for false prophesying (Deuteronomy 13:5)! I have yet to hear about any Charismatic "prophet" being censured - much less executed - for false prophesying. Rick Joyner and Paul Cain should have been "put to death" - figuratively at least - after their 1992 "prophecy" that God would use Bill Clinton to bring revival to America during his administration, for example. Biblical prophecy was inscripturated. So why do Charismatics not believe that the Scripture is still being written? Has prophecy somehow changed? Does the Bible predict and define this change?

"It shall come to pass in the last days, that the accuracy of prophecy shall decline and be completely lost, so that ye cannot distinguish between false prophets and true... and when a prophet is proven to be a false prophet who speaks lies in My name, ye shall revere him and call him 'anointed' and shall send millions of dollars to support his multimedia ministry (Charismania 2:28f)."

No Charismatic can seriously claim Sola Scriptura if he or she believes the modern-day "prophets and prophecy" are not to be judged by the Scriptural standard of 100% accuracy and the expulsion (if not execution) of false prophets.

-Robin

As you probably know, most people who are not Cessationists are definitely not Charismatics. In fact, most that I know of (such as the person I was/am talking to) believe that Charismatics are out to lunch (to put it bluntly). The reason why many of them don't believe that the gifts have ceased is not because they necessarily have experienced these gifts themselves, it is just that they do not agree with the interpretation that Cessationists give to passages such as 1 Cor. 13:8-9. Instead of the completion of the Canon, they take the view that that which is perfect is referring to when believers enter their eternal state.

The reason why I mention this is I think I need to be careful not to label everyone who isn't a Cessationist a Charismatic.

If this reasoning is flawed, or even beside the point, please enlighten me. Perhaps I am even missing your point, but I am certainly open to the truth.

Tom

The doctrine of the cessation of tongues and prophecy doesn't rest entirely upon 1Cor 13:8, 9. In fact, that text need not even be used. The closing of the Canon of Scripture is grounded upon far more passages which then reflect negatively upon non-cessationist views.

For example, see here: The Cessation of Tongues and Prophecy, by Greg Loren Durand.

Pilgrim
I am aware that the doctrine of prophecy and tongues doesn't rest entirely on 1Cor.13:8-9. I was only using that passage as an example.

Thank you for the article, I will read it and see if it is helpful.

Tom

Tom,

I responded to you in the manner which I did because of what YOU wrote:

IF you are aware that 1Cor 13:8, 9 isn't to be considered essential to showing the cessation of the ecstatic gifts, so-called, then you should explain this to these "many" non-cessationists and direct them to those passages of Scripture which are salient.

Well, this is something which I was not aware of. Could you explain to me what the difference is between non-cessationists, Charismatics and Pentecostals?

THANKS!

Basically, there are a lot of people that I am aware of that although they are closer in practice to Cessationists, in that they see no evidence of these gifts being practiced today, at least in the same manner that Scripture describes.
However at the same time, they do not agree with the interpretation of salient passages that Cessationists use to prove their case.
Most of these people such as JI Packer and a few other prominent theologians are willing to sit on the fence (so to speak) until God reveals to them via Scripture, the whole truth of the matter.
Although they could be labeled "non-cessationists", I don't consider them either Charismatic or Pentecostal.

Tom

This is for Pilgrim


In the opening sentence of the article it said:

I have a question, that perhaps will be easy for you to answer, but I have struggled with.
If I understand what this quote is saying, it is basically saying that only the Apostles had these sign gifts. Yet it appears that in Acts 2:17-18 that sons and daughters will prophecy. In my mind, if the above quote is correct it would seem that it wasn’t so much that the Apostles were the only ones who prophesied etc…, but that in some way these events validated the message of the Apostles.
However, I am told by quite a few cessationists that these gifts were only used by the Apostles.
I hope that makes sense to you.


Tom

Tom,

It is not saying that only the apostles had the gifts - that would be clearly contrary to Scripture. Rather, what it is saying is that the purpose of the gifts was to validate the apostolic ministry - that is, the message the apostles preached was proven by the gifts that accompanied the message. The gifts were present in all quarters of the church, but only during the apostolic era, where they were necessary to validate the passing of the Mosaic Covenant because of the death & resurrection of Christ, & the expansion of the visible church from the nation of Israel to professing believers of all nations.

One of the signs of apostleship was that when an Apostle laid hands on someone they would often demonstrate one of the sign gifts. But there is not one instance recorded in Scripture that any person OTHER than an Apostle ever passed the sign-gifts along to others. The "bestowing" of the sign gifts upon others was uniquely Apostolic. A Charismatic would likely run to Acts 9:12-19 in an attempt to show that Ananias laid hands on Saul, who later demonstrated the gifts, but the text says only that Saul of Tarsus was healed and baptized in water.

-R

Thank you, it just goes to show that not all those who claim to be Cessationists, know their stuff.
I can't tell you how many times I have heard/read Cessationists say that only the apostles used the sign gifts. Unfortunately, many non-cessationists use it against them.

Tom

Robin,

True, but on the other hand, the Spirit sometimes also bestowed gifts directly, e.g., Cornelius & his household.

"Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test everything; retain what is good" (1 Thess. 5:19–21). I don't see anything in Scripture which says prophecy ends with the death of the last apostle, though it is true that these prophecies add nothing to the Word, but only help to clarify it, sort of like how God uses everyday life to bring us to Christ. Cf. Jude 3. (Neither do I see Sola Scriptura in Scripture. Cf. 2 Thes 2:15.) Historically, the Church's tradition is to test prophecies (private revelations) against the Word of God. Here is a sampling of the respectable fathers on private revelations or prophecies:

Hermas

"The vision which I saw, my brethren, was of the following nature . . . [An] old woman approached, accompanied by six young men . . . [And] she said to me . . . ‘Lo! do you not see opposite to you a great tower, built upon the waters, of splendid square stones?’ For the tower was built square by the six young men who had come with her. But myriads of men were carrying stones to it, some dragging them from the depths, others removing them from the land, and they handed them to these six young men. . . . [And the woman said:] ‘The tower which you see building is myself, the Church . . . the tower is built upon the waters . . . because your life has been and will be "saved through water" [1 Pet. 3:20–21] . . . the six young men . . . are the holy angels of God . . . the other persons who are engaged in carrying the stones . . . also are holy angels of the Lord . . . [And] when the tower is finished and built, then comes the end’" (The Shepherd 1:3:1–8 [A.D. 80]).


The Martyrdom of Polycarp

"While he [Polycarp] was thus at his prayers, three days before his arrest, he had a vision in which he saw flames reducing his pillow to ashes; whereupon he turned to his companions and said, ‘I must be going to be burnt alive.’ . . . [After his arrest, the crowd called] loud demands for the Asiarch Philip to let loose a lion at Polycarp. However, he told them that the rules would not allow him to do so, since he had already declared the beast-fighting closed; whereupon they decided to set up a unanimous outcry that he should have Polycarp burnt alive" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 5, 12 [A.D. 155]).

"Polycarp was . . . bishop of the Catholic Church at Smyrna, and a teacher in our own day who combined both apostle and prophet in his own person. For indeed, every word that ever fell from his lips either has had or will have its fulfillment" (ibid., 16).


Justin Martyr

"For the prophetical gifts remain with us [Christians], even to the present time. And hence you [Jews] ought to understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 82 [A.D. 155]).


Irenaeus

"In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages and who bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God" (Against Heresies 5:6:1 [A.D. 189]).


Pionius

"I, Pionius, have made a fresh transcript of [The Martyrdom of Polycarp]. I found them after Polycarp the Blessed had revealed their whereabouts in a vision, as I will explain hereafter. Time had reduced them almost to tatters, but I gathered them carefully together in the hope that the Lord Jesus may likewise gather myself amongst his elect into his heavenly kingdom. To him, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, be glory forever and ever. Amen" (Martyrdom of Polycarp, copyist note 2 [A.D. 250]).

Anthony of Egypt

"[Anthony told his monks:] When, therefore, they [demons] come by night to you and wish to tell the future, or say ‘We are the angels,’ give no heed, for they lie. . . . But if they shamelessly stand their ground, capering, and change their forms of appearance, fear them not, nor shrink, nor heed them as though they were good spirits. For the presence either of the good or evil by the help of God can easily be distinguished. The vision of the holy ones is not fraught with distraction: ‘For they will not strive, nor cry, nor shall anyone hear their voice’ [Matt 12:19; cf. Is. 42:2]. But it comes quietly and gently that an immediate joy, gladness, and courage arise in the soul. For the Lord who is our joy is with them, and the power of God the Father" (Ambrose, Life of St. Anthony 35 [A.D. 359]).

Patricius,

Welcome to The Highway!

Please understand that our board promotes the historic teachings of Reformed Christianity, including sola Scriptura. If you wish to discuss sola Scriptura, please start a new thread. As for the sign gifts, as I said above, their purpose was limited to the time of the apostles. With the passing of the apostolic era & the completion of Scripture, there was & is no need for further revelation. I Thessalonians is one of the earliest writings of the New Testament, so of course we'd expect to see that the gifts are still active there. I have no idea what Jude 3 has to do with your point.

Thanks! Message recieved. I don't see in Scripture where the purpose of the gift of prophecy (1 Cor 14:1) is limited to validating the authority of the Apostles. (I brought up Jude 3 to agree that public revelation does end with teh Apostles, though the text is not explicit on that.) 1 Cor 13:-9 doesn't support this idea, since it is probably referring to the end of the world, saying nothing about the apostolic age, and I'm looking for other biblical proofs from this thread... I don't see any. In my opinion, the closing of the canon is not explicit in Scripture. As far as what is going on with the laying on of hands--which is brought up in this thread--this was passed on through others than the apostles, namely the other, lesser, presbyters. Cf. 1 Tim 4:14. In fact, instructions on laying on of hands is regarded as a permanenent foundation of the the faith, along with instructions about repentance and faith in Christ, and the last judgment. Cf. Heb 6:1-2. Does anyone have the explicit verses which say prophecy ended with the death of the last apostle?