The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Does God force men to sin?

Lynda,

Welcome back!

Unfortunately, even those who profess to be believers hate a God who is God, i.e., ALL THINGS have been determined by Him for His glory. Funny, that the Bible teaches that God "chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him, in love: having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:" (Eph 1:4-6) That this all-determining God in love chose undeserving God-hating, rebellious, idolatrous, adulterous, sinful individuals to receive saving grace in Christ Jesus. What sane individual would not exalt His name and humble themselves before Him in praise and adoration for His mercy?

Anyway.... you want information, eh? Well, The Highway website has over 1600 books, articles and sermons for your perusal. On the subject of God's eternal predestination, there is an entire section here: Predestination. Also, on both the main page and in the "Calvinism and the Reformed Faith" section, there is a Search feature that is keyed to all the material on The Highway. HINT: if you are wanting to search for terms, enclose them in "quotes".

And, if you are looking for something specific and can't find it, just ask here on the board and I'm sure a link or more will be provided.

Thank you, Pilgrim. I added that to my Favorites.

Well, once again I see something wrong with Arminianism:

"...his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature."

http://the-highway.com/compare.html

The problem I see with that is this:

Acts 26:17-19 (King James Version)

17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

John 3
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

2 Timothy 2
25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

There in Second Timothy it says that God gives them repentance.

Am I right?

Indubitably!!

You will eventually come to the obvious conclusion that most all complaints about Calvinism stem from one's hatred of the doctrine of Total Depravity. The problem is that most cannot and will not take the insult that they are DEAD in sins, hate God by nature and love to do that which God hates, i.e., transgress the law or refuse to do what the law requires. Look at it this way... If man is as depraved as the Bible says he is, then the only possible way that anyone could be saved is by an Unconditional Election, by a Definite Atonement, actuated by an Irresistible Grace and by God's faithful Preservation of the Saints.

Now, the passages you quoted are very good. You should further consider the indictment Paul brings against first the Gentiles, then the Jews and then both together in Romans chapters 1-3 and then Eph 2:1-5. There simply is no way around it... there is no ABILITY in man to repent and believe because there is inherently no desire to do so. The heart is wicked (cf. Gen 6:5; 8:21; Jer 17:7); the thinking [mind] is vain; the intellect is darkened; they are alienated from God; the heart is hardened [against God]; and the feeling [conscious] is of no effect! Eph 4:17-19

You go girl!!

In His grace,

As soon as I logout, I will read those.



Okey dokey.

I am a Catholic. I think that God knows what we will do, but never causes us to sin. He also wills all to come to repentance. Cf. 2 Pt 3:9. I think He also teaches us that we can have all confidence in our salvation, and even have confidence for others. "Love hopes all things" Cf. 1 Cor 13:7. We can also sacrifice for others' salvation. Cf. Col 1:24. The Diary of Faustina Kowalska, a private revelation, emphasizes the extreme horror of man's sin, together with the unimaginable love of God's mercy. I think we're all looking for that kind of dependency.

Yes, God knows what we will do because He has foreordained all that we will do.

Isaiah 46:9-10 (ASV) "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; [I am] God, and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not [yet] done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;" (cf. Isa 44:7; 45:21; Ps 33:11; 135:6; Dan 4:35; Rom 11:33-36; Eph 1:9-11)

2Peter 3:9 is speaking of God's will for those whom He has predestinated in Christ, aka: the elect. The CONTEXT demands that it be understood in this way. Here is the entire passage in context:

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV) "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

As you can see, the Lord is not willing that any of the us-ward (Grk: hemas us) perish, etc. So, the question needs to be asked, who are the "us-ward"? They are the "beloved of God" mentioned in the previous verses. It is the "to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ:" (1:1). So, the right understanding of the text is that God will not send back His Son till the Body of Christ is complete, and that will not be till the ones whom He has elected to be saved in this dispensation shall have been brought to Him.

This really needs more clarification, please. And, I see nothing in Col 1:24 about the salvation of others, but rather Paul is speaking about the shared afflictions in the true Body of Christ as they are in union with Christ.

In His grace,

The verses you bring up are talking about God's sovereignty, which is something which passes our comprehension. But his sovereignty gives us freedom. Cf. Gen 1:27, Gal 5:1.

1 John 2:2, 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.'"

God is infinitely good. He would never cause someone to do evil. "Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good!"

We can help to save others through Christ because he said:

1 I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men;

2 for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity.

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.
(1 Tim 2:1etc).

1. God's sovereignty is REVEALED in Scripture so that we may comprehend Who He is, what He has done and what He will do to the extent which is written. We do not know all of what God's sovereignty entails and never will since we are finite and He is infinite. But again, God has revealed much about His sovereignty in Scripture.

2. In regard to the two verses referenced:

Genesis 1:27 (ASV) "And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Galatians 5:1 (ASV) "For freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage."

Neither of these passages speak of God's sovereignty, thus they are totally irrelevant and I am perplexed why you included them. The Genesis text simply refers to the unique nature of man vs animals in that God created man "in His image" (imago dei) and that both male and female possess the image of God.

The Galatian text is speaking of believers who have been set free from the curse and dominion of the law. Believers are united to Christ Who fulfilled all the requirements of the law and suffered in their room and stead being punished for them for the transgressions of that law. There is no reference whatsoever to God's sovereignty there.

Once again, you have thrown out some Bible verse which appears to have absolutely no relevancy to the topic at hand nor even to any point you are trying to make.

Are you trying to say that you believe that men are saved by a combination of God's grace AND the prayers of believers? And to carry this further by way of implication if this is the case, Without the prayers of the saints (living individuals on earth) sinners could not be saved?

Again, thanks in advance for your further clarification.

I would appreciate a bit more kindness, if possible. I think each of the verses I gave were relevant. Gen 1:27 and Gal 5:1 clearly indicate that God's sovereignty implies our sovereinty--free will--since we are made in the image of Christ, who is free.

Am I saying "that men are saved by a combination of God's grace AND the prayers of believers?". No. God's grace includes the free prayers of believers who, through the One Mediator, can intercede even for all men (cf. 1 Tim 2:1-5).....The original point being that God is infinitely good, and would never cause anyone to sin.

I fail to see where you have been shown anything but kindness.

I say again, the verses referenced are irrelevant to the topic and your own point. Secondly, your conclusion that "God's sovereignty implies our sovereignty--free will--since we are made in the image of Christ..." is a non sequitur. 1) There is but one Sovereign, even God and Christ as LORD. 2) Man has never had a "free will" either before the Fall and especially after the Fall. That man is a "free agent" is true, i.e., he is capable of making choices. But those choices are determined by man's nature. 3) Even God Himself is void of a "free will", i.e., God Almighty cannot choose to will nor do that which is contrary to His thrice holy nature. The point is that God does not have to force any man to sin because all men sin naturally due to the fact that they are born sinners. (cf. Ps 51:5; 58:3; Job 15:14-16; Jh 3:3-6; Rom 3:10-18; 5:12; Eph 2:3)

What do you mean by "intercede" in regard to the prayers of believers? When the One Mediator "intercedes" for His own, it is efficacious (cf. Heb 7:25; Rom 8:34 and the Holy Spirit as Intercessor on the behalf of true believers Rom 8:27). Thus the One Mediator's intercession is far different than the intercessory prayers of believers.

Hi Pilgrim,

Thank you.

We are partakers in God's sovereignty through Christ, because we are made "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pt 1:4; Cf. Gen 1:27.)

Thus we shouldn't make a dichotomy between Christ's intercession and the Church's intercession, since Scripture doesn't draw such a dichotomy. Cf. 1 Tim 2:1-5, Eph 1:22-23.

We agree that God is good, not forcing anyone to sin, and that "God wants everyone to be saved" Cf. 2 Tim 2:6.

Thanks, Patricius.

The Scriptures give us the right understanding of the "imago dei":

Ephesians 4:24 (ASV) "and put on the new man, that after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth."

Colossians 3:10 (ASV) "and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:"

Both passages are sandwiched in sections where Paul is speaking about right living, i.e., living a holy and righteous life. There is no mention of being partakers of God's "sovereignty". There are no reputable theologians nor writers that I am aware of that hold to what you are saying.

Re: forcing man to sin... Yes, agreed that God does not and cannot do so...

Re: God wants everyone to be saved... We are decidedly not in agreement on this one. IF I have somehow communicated that this is my view, I apologize. If it was the case that God "wanted/desired" all men to be saved indiscriminately; i.e., every man, woman and child whoever was, is or will be, then de facto all would be infallibly saved. God's decretive will is sure.

Isaiah 43:10-13 (ASV) "Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour. I have declared, and I have saved, and I have showed; and there was no strange [god] among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and I am God. Yea, since the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who can hinder it?"

Isaiah 46:9-10 (ASV) "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; [I am] God, and there is none like me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not [yet] done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;"

Daniel 4:35 (ASV) "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

Romans 8:29-30 (ASV) "For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Thus, I must reject any and all views that embrace universalism.

Dear Pilgrim, Thank you.

Here is Eph 1:

22And he hath subjected all things under his feet, and hath made him head over all the church,

23Which is his body, and the fulness of him who is filled all in all.

How could the Church be the fulness of Jesus without partaking of all God's nature? Cf. also Col 2:9.

In reverse order:

1. Re: Col 2:9 This is a propositional statement that affirms the full deity of Christ.

Colossians 2:9 (ASV) "for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,"

That the two texts use the same word, "fulness" does not necessitate that they are synonymous nor related, for in fact, they are not related. The Colossians passage is focusing upon the full sufficiency of Christ in salvation vs. adding anything else to Him in order to be saved. The CONTEXT confirms that this understanding is true:

2. Re: Eph 1:22, 23 This passage is revealing a profound truth that Christ, as He is the Bridegroom, the Head of the Church is in some measure incomplete in that He is inextricably joined with the Church which He has purchased with His own blood (Acts 20:28). The emphasis is upon the relationship that exists uniquely and specifically between Christ and the Church. There is no implication whatsoever that the Church "shares in God's sovereignty". Again, the focus is upon Christ. The Church is "the fulness of Him (Christ)" as it is His bride. A wife cannot be said to share the intellect, morals, talents, etc., of her husband never mind his makeup (attributes).

Man has no sovereignty of his own. He is totally and wholly dependent upon God for all things, even the very breath he breathes. In fact, this entire idea that man possesses sovereignty was the original sin that preceded the Fall; both of man and of Satan. And so it is today that all men by nature strive for autonomy apart from God. One of its most pernicious expressions is to be found in the semi-Pelagian/Arminian and all other religions' insistence that man has a "free-will".

So no, man does not "share in God's sovereignty"!! He has not and cannot relinquish anything of His being or nature to the creature.

Isaiah 46:9 (ASV) "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; [I am] God, and there is none like me;"

Isaiah 48:11 (ASV) "For mine own sake, for mine own sake, will I do it; for how should [my name] be profaned? and my glory will I not give to another."