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#44303
Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:52 AM
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I thought I would throw this out for discussion. When I studied this text in depth a few years ago, I was surprised as my eyes were opened to a marvelous truth which I had not realized before, even though it was, of course, staring at me for so long. QUESTION: Whose voice is the inspired writer referring to here?Hebrews 12:25-26 (ASV) "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not when they refused him that warned [them] on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape] who turn away from him that [warneth] from heaven: whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven." ![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/reading2.gif)
![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/pilgrim/pil_sig2.gif) simul iustus et peccator![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/pencil.gif)
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Christ, through the prophet Haggai. It was Christ's voice that created the heavens and the earth (John 1:1-3), the One who explained God to Man (verse 18). I think the reference is applicable to the final exodus, when the creation is to be shaken, and all the kingdoms of the world (Haggai 2:22) overthrown and Christ and His chosen ones are all that remain.
-Robin
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Christ, through the prophet Haggai. It was Christ's voice that created the heavens and the earth (John 1:1-3), the One who explained God to Man (verse 18). I think the reference is applicable to the final exodus, when the creation is to be shaken, and all the kingdoms of the world (Haggai 2:22) overthrown and Christ and His chosen ones are all that remain. Well...... yes and no.  Re: the "no" part, here's the full context of that passage which should give you the answer to the PLACE that the voice was heard. Once you realize the PLACE then I'm sure the proverbial lights will go on and the wonder of it all.  Near context: Hebrews 12:18-24 (ASV) "For ye are not come unto [a mount] that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which [voice] they that heard entreated that no word more should be spoken unto them; for they could not endure that which was enjoined, If even a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned; and so fearful was the appearance, [that] Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake: but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than [that of] Abel."
vv. 25, 26: "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not when they refused him that warned [them] on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape] who turn away from him that [warneth] from heaven: whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven." Good work on the "yes" part! Let's see who else 'gets it'. ![[Linked Image]](http://the-highway.com/Smileys/squareface.gif)
simul iustus et peccator
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Nice try!  You got the PLACE but not the PERSON. Here's a hint to figure out why the person wasn't Jesus who spoke on Mt. Sinai: Luke 1:31 (KJV) "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS."
John 1:14 (ASV) "And the Word became flesh {Jesus of Nazareth}, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth." That should help... Now take it from there. ![[Linked Image]](http://the-highway.com/Smileys/Ponder.gif)
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Well, let me give it a try. I would say it is the voice of God the Father and it refers to the transfiguration on the mountain.
Johan
Last edited by Johan; Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:34 PM.
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 The Word Mount Sinai
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The Word Mount Sinai And what or who is "The Word"? 
simul iustus et peccator
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I am with Johan, God the Father, Mount Sinai
Be killing sin or it will be killing you. John Owen
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I am with Johan, God the Father, Mount Sinai That's a very common understanding of the text. Let's see what other views some might have.
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Pilgrim,
From what you say it seems as if there is just one correct understanding of the text. Right??
Johan
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From what you say it seems as if there is just one correct understanding of the text. Right?? A guarded "yes". What I mean is that one could posit that it was "God's" voice, which would be technically correct. But there are three persons within the Godhead. Unless one wants to say that all three of the person's spoke simultaneously; a bit of a problem IMHO, then one would have to chose among them, correct? If one believes the voice belonged to someone other than God, then that's a totally different matter. So, the original question was, put another way, "Whose voice did Moses hear on Mt. Sinai?" (I'm conceding and agreeing that the place referred to in the overall context is Mt. Sinai, cf. vv. 18-21, 25)
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Pilgrim, How many chances does one get??? Thinking more about it, maybe I am starting to understand your question. So, I'll try again. I would say it was the voice of the Son. The reason for saying so is that He is the only mediator between the Father and man. At Mt. Sinai God made a covenant with the people of Israel and this covenant could only be made by a Mediator. And that Mediator is Christ, the Son of God. And He always was the Mediator, in the Old as well as the New Testament. Johan
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Thinking more about it, maybe I am starting to understand your question. So, I'll try again. I would say it was the voice of the Son. The reason for saying so is that He is the only mediator between the Father and man. At Mt. Sinai God made a covenant with the people of Israel and this covenant could only be made by a Mediator. And that Mediator is Christ, the Son of God. And He always was the Mediator, in the Old as well as the New Testament. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.the-highway.com/Smileys/applause.gif) Very well done!! Yes, in my personal study of this passage I have come to the conclusion that the voice heard on Sinai was that of the pre-incarnate Christ; the Son of God. And the voice which will be heard is that of the incarnate Christ; Jesus Christ. He is indeed the Mediator and only Mediator between God and man. And, according to James 4:12, there is only one "lawgiver" and "judge" (Rom 2:16; 2Tim 4:1; Heb 10:28-30). There are many implications for understanding that it was the pre-incarnate Christ, the Son, Who spoke on Sinai but one major one, for me at least, in that it provides a strong argument against NCT and all those who claim that the Ten Commandments are not applicable to NT Christians and that we are to abide only by the "Law of Christ". However, if the Ten Commandments were delivered by Christ (pre-incarnate) then there is no law which is "new" or supercedes it. In other words, there is only one Lawgiver and thus His laws are one and the same in all ages with the noted exception of those ceremonial and civil laws which were fulfilled at His coming and by which all men shall be judged.
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Pilgrim
When I stated "The Word" (John 1:1), I was talking about God the Son (i.e. the pre-incarnate Christ).
As someone who believes that the Ten Commandments are still applicable today; I find your comments concerning NCT very interesting.
Can you expand a little more on that particular aspect?
Do you know of any articles that stress this aspect?
Tom
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Can you expand a little more on that particular aspect?
Do you know of any articles that stress this aspect? Sure...... here ya go: New Covenant Theology.
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Can you expand a little more on that particular aspect?
Do you know of any articles that stress this aspect? Sure...... here ya go: New Covenant Theology. Can you expand a little more on that particular aspect?
Do you know of any articles that stress this aspect? Sure...... here ya go: New Covenant Theology. Yikes  was I that unclear? When I asked you that I was not talking directly about NCT (although it has relevance to NCT); I was referring to what you said about the pre-incarnate Christ speaking at Mount Sinai and how it shows as you put it. in that it provides a strong argument against NCT and all those who claim that the Ten Commandments are not applicable to NT Christians and that we are to abide only by the "Law of Christ". I am looking for you to expand on this (i.e. give further understanding on how this proves NCT wrong), and if you know any, provide articles (or commentary) on the pre-incarnate Christ speaking on Mount Sinai. Tom
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I followed some of the links on the NCT. This is what one says and I think that's exactly what Pilgrim refers to: The version of law in the Old Covenant era was the Mosaic Law, which included the Ten Commandments. The version of law in the New Covenant era is the law of Christ, which includes the commands of Christ that pertain to the New Covenant era and the commands of his Apostles. Over the last couple of months I have heard preachers refer to Matthew 22:38,38 AS IF it was something totally new that Jesus taught while he was simply quoting from the Old Testament. I always felt uneasy when a preacher did this. Johan
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Johan,
EXACTLY! NCT posits that Christ brought in a "new law" which superseded the OT law, particularly the moral law as delivered at Sinai. They claim that only those laws which are "echoed" in the NT are binding upon Christians. Further, they teach that there is no mention of the Fourth Commandment in the NT and therefore it is no longer applicable; it belonged only to Israel. There are far more implications, of course, but this is the gist of it.
The point being, that since the pre-incarnate Christ was the Author of the Ten Commandments and that He delivered them to Moses, what the incarnate Christ taught on earth was identical. There is only one Lawgiver and one moral Law. Jesus further established this truth when He said that He only taught what the Father had given to Him, thus establishing the unanimity of the Godhead. (Jh 6:63; 8:26, 28; 8:38; 12:50; 14:10) The short of it is that there is only one moral law which God has delivered which is binding upon all men for all ages. It was the same person who put His law in the heart of Adam and all who followed him. It was the same person who iterated that law on Sinai. And it was the same person who taught this very same law when He walked on earth.
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Johan Sorry I was not clearer, though I have a lot to learn about what NCT teaches (do I really want to know more  ), I did know about the aspect you speak about. My main reason for asking for further comment was Pilgrim's statement that it was the pre-incarnate Christ that spoke at Mount Sinai. If true and I am looking for further clarification, I believe Pilgrim brings up a very good point. Along with this, I am trying to find further understanding in the hopes that it would somehow cement (if I can put it that way) this aspect in my mind. Mainly because, experience tells me that I am going to be confronted with this subject again and I want to be prepared for it. Hopefully I have made myself clear. Tom
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Tom, I would commend to you John Owen's commentary on the book of Hebrews and of course the relevant section of that commentary that deals with this particular passage of that book. Obviously, I'm recommending Owen's comments because he holds to the same understanding of the passage as I do. And since I'm a nobody but Owen is a somebody perhaps his comments might have more persuasion for you.
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I asked Pilgrim's original question to two pastors by telephone this morning. I see one of them later today and I'm really curious to see what answer he gives. The second IMMEDIATELY said it was Christ's voice. He didn't hesitate for a moment. He is also very strongly opposed to views which hold that Christ is not seen in the Old Testament.
Johan
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Johan, It is an interesting study to search through the OT and look for "Christophanies"; appearances of the pre-incarnate Christ, aka: the Son of God... legitimate ones of course and not any that one might "force". A few examples might suffice to pique the interest of some. - Who was it that Adam heard the voice of who walked in the Garden of Eden? (Gen 3.8) - Who appeared to Abram at Shechem and spoke to him? (Gen 12:7) - Who was that third 'man' who visited Abram on the plains of Marme? (Gen 18:1) - Who was that angel of the Lord who spoke to Abraham out of heaven? (Gen 22:11ff) - Who was it that Jacob wrestled with all night long? (Gen 32:24-30) - Who was that man outside of Jericho with a drawn sword who confronted Joshua? (Josh 5:13-15) - Who was that man who appeared to Manoah and his wife? (Judges 13:2ff) - Who killed 185,000 men of the Syrian army? (2Kgs 19:35) - Who was that Angel of the Lord that stood before Joshua the high priest? (Zech 3:1-5) Now, let's keep in mind that "no man has ever seen God [the Father] at any time" John 1:18, cf. Deut 5:26 and 1Tim 1:17. Thus when the OT speaks of men having seen God it must be that they saw either the pre-incarnate Son or the Holy Spirit. An excellent article concerning John Owen's views on Christ's pre-incarnate appearances can be found here: John Owen and Old Testament Christophanies.
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Hi Pilgrim
I am wondering if you (or anyone else who is reading this) have William Hendricksen's Commentary concerning this passage?
I am trying to find what different commentaries say about this passage. Hendricksen's (so I am told) is one of the best on the market. One which I plan on buying when I feel I can afford it.
Tom
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William Hendriksen didn't write a commentary on Hebrews. Simon J. Kistemaker did however which is part of the new set. I bought my set of Hendriksen's commentaries years before Kistemaker began adding those volumes which Hendriksen himself didn't include. Perhaps someone else can answer your question who has this particular volume.
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Tom, Kistemaker writes as follows regarding v. 26: Again the writer reminds the readers of the experience at Mount Sinai. From numerous places throughout the Old Testament Scriptures, they learned that the shaking of the mountains when God gave his people the Decalogue was an extraordinary event. The speaker obviously is God, whose voice shook the mountain and made the people trmple with fear. But the same voice also utters a promise that has recurring and lasting significance. Through the prophet Haggai, God spoke to the Israelites concerning rebuilding the temple and said, "In a little while I will once more shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land. I will shake all nations, and the desired of all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory" (2:6-7). From the literature of the Jewish rabbis, we learn that this particular passage was considered to be messianic.
The prophet predicted a shaking of the heavens and the earth. The writer transposes the terms heaven and earth to show the sequence of the effect of Christ's work. The earth shook when Jesus died and when he arose (Matt. 27:51; 28:2), but more importantly the preaching of the gospel and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit shook the entire world. The heavens also experienced change: the angelic hosts sing Christ's praises (Rev. 5:12); angels rejoice when one sinner repents (Luke 15:10); angels are sent out to minister to the needs of believers on earth (Heb. 1:14); and angels long to look into the mystery of salvation (Eph. 3:10; I Peter 1:12). It is Christ, therefore, who is at the center of this upheaval on earth and in heaven. He will cause heaven and earth to shake when he appears a second time (Matt. 24:29; II Peter 3:10).
Kyle
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified.
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