The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Question about Calvinism from Arminian brother

Greetings to all,
New member/first-time poster. I am firmly Arminian in my theology and am familiar with the basics of Calvinism. I am trying to understand it more, however, because there seems to be so many inherit contradictions with it. I am assuming that there are valid answers to these contradictions; otherwise there would not be so many Godly people whom I respect that agree with it. I would like to present some of these and ask for explanations.

I'll start with a simple one.

If it seems to me that if the elect are predetermined, there is hardly a need for sharing the gospel message. Consider this illustration.

Let’s say that I'm a minister and I received a phone call from a friend who's father is about to die and has never heard the gospel. Why can't I respond by saying "Don't worry, if he is one of the elect he'll go to heaven anyway. If he's not, I would just be wasting my breath."

Please be sure to glorify God in your response.

First of all...

The simple answer is: God ordains the means as well as the end. One of the means is the preaching of the Gospel. Men are not given a prior and especially not an infallible knowledge of who God in His infinite love and mercy has predestined to be saved in Christ. What we have been told and thus know is that ALL; men, women and children are born guilty before God and are sinners by nature. Thus, ALL are in need of hearing the Gospel, repenting of their sins and believing savingly upon the Lord Christ.

The Highway website (see the link on the bottom of the forum) has over 1600 books, articles and sermons covering most of the subjects you probably are interested in knowing about. There is an entire section devoted to just Predestination, which you can access by clicking HERE. And perhaps one of the more salient articles which deals with your question is this one: Objections: Answered by Loraine Boettner.

We will be more than happy to try and answer any/all of your questions. But I would ask that you don't dump a whole bunch of them on us all at once. It makes it far too difficult to follow a discussion on several subjects brought up in one thread, if you know what I mean. So, let's keep this one focused on predestination as much as possible.

Welcome, I hope you find what you are looking for and May God Richly Bless You in your pursuit of Bible truths!!!

A few random thoughts for you to think about.

-Predestination/Election is a very God glorifying doctrine because it provides the downcast sinner who is pricked and compelled to respond to God's command to repent and be converted with hope and praise unto the God who is merciful to sinners and the Lord Jesus who died for their sins.

-God's revealed will is to repent and believe, the Gospel is Good News to the sinner who desires to be reconciled unto God by the blood of Jesus Christ. We are called to repent and believe, how do we respond to this command? indifference? disdain? or with hope, trust and faith in the promises of God.

-My favorite Free-Will/Arminian question: What makes one to respond and compelled to come while the other rejects the Gospel? What makes us to differ? Hint: John 6:44

-More of a direct response to you question is: if your friend dies without hearing the gospel you know (as much as we can know these things) his fate is sealed. But if you 'waste your breath' there is a possibility that you were the means or the instrument used by God to save that soul.

-Consider that God knows all, from His perspective all the outcomes, including the salvation of sinners, are fixed. SO whether you refer to it as predestination, preordination, foreknowledge, or what have you the end result will unfold the way God knew that it would.

-If one must hear the gospel message in order that he/she is to be saved what will happen to those who have no knowledge of the way unto salvation - it is our duty as Christians to prayerfully share the Good News with our fellow man that we may be the means used by God to bring others to Christ.

Also, see my last few posts on the Roman Catholicism thread which also deals with these issues.

AC

Pilgrim and AC,

Thank you so much for taking the time to help me understand and thank you for being so respectful. I often am reluctant to initiate conversations such as this because the outcome often surely grieves the Holy Spirit.

I'm not fully satisfied with the answers, however. I feel as though you danced around the question, but didn't address it full on.

Pilgrim... to sum up and simplify your statement, you're saying (1)The Bible is the only way to heaven. (2) We don't know who is predestined elect or not. (3) Since we are all sinners, we all must repent and believe to be saved.

With the exception of point number 2, which would simply not apply to Arminian theology, the other points are part of basic Christian salvation principles. In fact, when I read your explanation (and perhaps this is just because of my strong Arminian roots) it sounds as if you are saying that it is the responsibility of the sinner to repent.


AC, I really appreciate your well written comments and wanted to shout "Amen, brother" at times, but they don't seem to clear up the problem. And I really loved your challenge for me concerning John 6:44. You'll probably hate this, but I'm not going to address it here because its a tangent and I would like to stay focused on the original problem. Start another post and I'll address it. I promise that I don't have to avoid this verse to maintain my theology. Regarding the problem, you said "...if you 'waste your breath' there is a possibility that you were the means or the instrument used by God to save that soul." At this point you are trying to maintain that the dying man has no control over his salvation, but that I do? I don't think this idea of transferred free-will is supported by Calvinism.


So I humbly propose this this problematic argument and ask you to respond. My logical argument is A leads to B which leads to C. (A)Calvinism believes that a person is predestined to be saved, regardless of that person's actions or the actions of any other persons. (B)The action that the minister takes of going to witness to the dying man or not will have no bearing on the man's eternal soul. (C) Therefore, there is no point in witnessing to the dying man.

Welcome to the Highway

I will not try to answer your questions directly because that is already being done, probably better than I can.
Instead, I would like to state that I used to be Arminian in theology for many years. However being a student of the Word of God, there were a lot of questions that I thought needed answering from my perspective.
I was being challenged by Calvinists to research the Bible on a number of issues. After a while I was finding that the Calvinist understanding stood up against Scripture more than my (I had help as well) Arminian understanding.
However, that left me with a dilemma. The Calvinist understanding seemed to make God out to be something that I did not like.
It was because of that that I tried to dig even further with the hope that I would actually find out that the Arminian understanding was biblical. This was actually a very hard time in my life and I am not just talking about the theological ramifications.
This went on until a light came on; unwittingly I had been looking at the whole matter through a human perspective, rather than through the eyes of our sovereign God.
After that, it was only a matter of time before I was able to embrace the Calvinist understanding.
This does not mean that I know all the answers, but it now gives me more of a confidence that my sovereign God is in control and this helps me in matters such as evangelism and everyday life. Especially considering in the last year my health has not been very good.

I thought I would also mention that a lot of problems people have with Calvinism, can be attributed to misunderstanding, strawmen arguements, or just a misguided perspective.
For His Glory
Tom

Hey Kent,

sorry for the tangents and thanks for your understanding, I'll try to stay on track!

I think you're oversimplifying the matter, and I think this is what Pilgrim was getting at....

There are means used, the sharing of the gospel. If the gospel message isn't presented there is no hope. So it is not as simple as A+B=C. It all has to play out in this life. You are right that we can't save ourselves. But when we are placed in a position to respond to the gospel or to share the gospel we have a duty to comply. The fact that we don't is not God's fault but our burden as fallen creatures. The fact that we do, is to God's glory, becasue He granted us the grace to do so. And God gets the full glory, we cannot boast becasue we are recipients of unmerited favor!

AC

At the risk of oversimplification myself I will summarize:

A)A person must be placed in a position to receive the gospel in order to be saved - that is why evangilizing, witnessing and missions are so important
B)What you said is not true, the minister will make a huge difference and without somebody to share the message how can we be saved? However it is God who will make the ultimate difference through the work of regeneration via the HS as to whether one will respond and ultimately be saved.
C)Not true, see B.

Sorry if you feel I didn't address your question. Perhaps I can do better this time around?

1. No, saving faith in the Lord Christ is the only means of salvation. The Bible contains all that is necessary for one to know about God, Christ, Holy Spirit, sin, salvation, this faith and practice, etc.

2. Yes, only God knows, because He has so determined by His eternal and immutable counsel, who has been elected to salvation. This is God's "secret will" (cf. Deut 29:29), i.e., that which has not been revealed to mankind. There is no 'list' of those who are to be saved which anyone can read.

3. Affirmed. This is what all of mankind is responsible to do. Ability has no relevancy on man's responsibility.

Yes, it is the responsibility of every individual born of the human race to repent and believe upon Christ.

(A) Those who have been predestined to salvation will infallibly repent and believe because the Holy Spirit regenerates their dead soul and enables them to comprehend the Gospel. This new nature is predisposed to hate sin and love God and all that is good, which is antithetical to a person's natural condition.

(B) The minister's bringing of the Gospel is an integral part of the means which God has ordained to save the elect. I've briefly mentioned this in my first response to you. Again, God has ordained the means as well as the end.

(C) As explained in point (B), it is through the preaching of the Gospel that sinners are saved (cf. Rom 1:16; 10:13-17; Jh 3:16; 1Cor 1:18-24; 14:24,25; Col 1:5,6; 1Thess 1:5; 2:13; Heb 4:12; 1Pet 1:23).

AC,

Thank you for the effort of trying to explain. I'm really enjoying this discussion.

I promise that I'm not intentionally being difficult, but I feel the answers you are giving are self-contradictory.

It is reminding me of the world of physics where the rules of quantum physics and rules of macro physics completely disagree with each other. Yet the physicist is fine with this and just picks whichever set of rules he feels best applies to the situation. I'm not comfortable with a theology that assumes man has no role in salvation when talking theology or personal salvation, but diverts from that when talking about evangelism and missions. Just my thoughts at the moment, no insult intended of course.

But where I would direct you first, AC, is back to my first two premisses.

(A)Calvinism believes that a person is predestined to be saved, regardless of that person's actions or the actions of any other persons.
(B)The action that the minister takes of going to witness to the dying man or not will have no bearing on the man's eternal soul.

You said that (A) is true, but (B) is false. That cannot be because (A) and (B) are the same exact premiss. Premiss (B) is simply an application of premiss (A) to the scenario. It would be similar to if I said: (A) All lies are a sin. (B) Lying on your taxes is a sin. They're either both true or both false.

So if you want to be able to disagree with (B) you must change (A). Agree? And you might be able to do so without deviating from Calvinism, which I think is where this conversation should continue.

That's a HUGE point you made here!

Pilgrim,

Please don't be frustrated with me. I am not purposely being thick headed. I just do not understand your linkings here. Like AC, you seem to be affirming premise A which rejecting premise B.


It sounds like you are providing an explanation as to why premise A is true, which is the core definition of predestination according to Calvinism. It is from this definition that I formulated the first premise, so no issues here.


Now here you are denying premise B. And since I'm such a great writer ;P I'll quote myself...

No problem Kent! I didn't expect you say AHA! CALVIN IS THE MAN!!! IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!! HOW DID I NOT SEE IT BEFORE!!!

But let me take another stab at it anyway,

I do think man has a role, but look what Augustine says in my signature.

God commands us to repent and believe. We are responsible. Some of us are compelled to do so. Others refuse. Some don't even receive the command, despite the fact that the evidences of God are all around us (and God may call those without perfect or incomplete understanding). And there are some that respond to the message, but they are not pricked in their hearts and the message never penetrates.....


Now back to A & B, before I can answer any further I have to ask you a question:

Is their a process in which one is saved? How does it play out? Is their a radical change in that person? What are the fruits of this change?

See, I don't think you can take a purely technical analysis of something as grand and experiential as the conversion of sinners to God....I don't think we can break it down into a formula.

AC

Tom,

Thank you for your welcome and your testimony. I'm glad that you have found security in your faith. I'm very interested in the exact verses that were giving you problems, but that would be a topic for another thread if you wanted to present those.

I also agree that many of my struggles over these contradictions that I'm presenting are probably due to my lack of understanding. As I stated before, there are many intelligent and Godly men who are Calvinists, so it must make sense.

Let's iterate your two premises:

(A) Calvinism believes that a person is predestined to be saved, regardless of that person's actions or the actions of any other persons.

(B) The action that the minister takes of going to witness to the dying man or not will have no bearing on the man's eternal soul.

So, let's try it again, taking the plain words of each premise.

(A) Yes, Calvinism holds that God determined who would be saved out of Adam's fallen race apart from the individuals to be saved. To put it in a polemic fashion, God didn't "look down the corridors of time" or "peer into the future" to see who would believe on Christ and thus predestinate and elect them. Likewise, God did not consider any individual's character, alleged good deeds, desires, etc., etc., which somehow influenced God to choose them because of what He allegedly saw. I have thoroughly shown any such notions as being a denial of the biblical God elsewhere and myriad times on this board. God predestined/elected who He did based upon nothing other than His own good pleasure and for His own glory. The doctrine is thus rightly called, UNconditional Election".

IF, however, you are meaning that humans are totally uninvolved in salvation, this is a false premise. Obviously, individual humans (sinners) are involved because they are they ones who are to be saved. And/or, if you are meaning that Calvinism holds that no means are involved, including other humans, then again, this is an errant understanding.

(B) This again is a totally false premise and hardly contradicts my/our answer to premise (A). I really don't know how to make it any plainer for you. God ordains the end AND the means to that end. There is a plethora of biblical passages which are very clear in teaching this.


No, I need not change (A) because it is true. I am disagreeing with your second premise (B) because it is in fact totally false, i.e., it makes no difference whatsoever whether the Gospel is brought to a dying sinner in order for that individual to be saved. The implication, as I am understanding it is... Because God has predestinated certain individuals, it doesn't matter what anyone does because those predestinated will be saved REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY DO! and likewise in regard to those not elected, aka: reprobates. Thus, based upon my understanding of your premise, this again is 100% false. It is through means ordained by God that salvation is brought to sinners. The most vivid paradigm of this principle; God's sovereignty and man's responsibility and involvement is seen in the crucifixion of the Lord Christ, Acts 2:22-24; 3:18; 4:26-28. Are you familiar with these inspired words of Peter?

AC

Each time you and Pilgrim post, I am blessed.




Now the Calvinist believes that when it comes to salvation, man does not have a role except for that of being the subject to whom grace and forgiveness is given or not given. So no responsibility, no action, no ability to boast so that all glory be to God. Are you sure you're Calvinist?


I think you are asking me for the Arminian definition of salvation? I am happy to give it, but I'm so paranoid about going off topic because I really want to reconcile the contradiction. This is also my way of describing salvation, and not really text-book Arminianism.

The Holy Spirit calls to the hearts of all men. In the hearts of sinners the Spirit's activities are three fold: (1) Revealing to the sinner the holiness of God (2) Convicting the sinner of his guilt and separation from God (3) Revealing to the sinner the way to reconcile the difference, by surrendering his will to the Spirit's will. The role of the Gospel is that it is the ultimate truth revealed to sinner of the workings of the Spirit within him.

Although there may be lots of reasons why a sinner claims he will not believe (science, relativism, hypocritical Christian), there is really only one reason and it is the same reason Adam fell. The desire to live for one's own self instead of God's.

When a sinner relents of his own hold over his life and surrenders to the Spirit's will, the Holy Spirit, who has been standing at the door of the sinner's heart, will now come and dwell within. The sinner, through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, then is led to repentance and placed upon the path towards Christlikeness.

The radical change and fruits of the spirit are attributed to the real, supernatural power of the Holy Spirit dwelling within a believer.

Now, the Calvinist is opposed to the idea that man would be able to take any credit for his own salvation. That if there is any choice whatsoever, that would be deny God of His glory. I don't believe this is so. It's like we are all in a rushing river. The water is the Holy Spirit and the current is His calling of us to the Father and Son. The sinner is in the water, feeling the current, yet he is holding on to the shore, resisting the current. Now, if the sinner lets go and is carried to the promised land, he would be a fool to say "I made it here by myself." He was carried there. What he would instead say is "Why did I foolishly resist for so long." This is not robbing glory from God but is glorifying Him for His unconditional love for all mankind, to love and call even those who will not let go.




The only thing I would say here, my friend, is that John Calvin himself came to his conclusions through logical arguments such as I presented. He did not, by his own account, develop ideas such as "once-saved always-saved" solely through reading scripture, but as the result of a logical deduction that began with the premise that mankind is capable of no good deed. His second premise was that any action leading towards salvation is a good deed. Therefore man cannot contribute to his own salvation. Those to whom salvation are given must be entirely an act of God. God would not give salvation to those who will reject him. Therefore, salvation given will not be something man will or can reject.