The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Double Predestination

In the "TULIP Question" thread, the subject of Double Predestination was broached, or rather why some Calvinists don't believe in double predestination.

I thought this topic deserved its own thread.

In an effort to understand where those in the Reformed community who reject the doctrine called “Double Predestination” I found out the following.

One of the arguments that those among the Reformed community say they reject the doctrine of “double predestination” is they believe that the word “predestination” in Scripture is always used as an action that God uses on man. They agree that when it comes to the elect, God does “predestine”, but when it comes to the non-elect God does not take any action. Instead He leaves them in their unsaved state. They go on to say that if indeed God’s causation is responsible in the same way He is for the elect to become saved; then by necessity God is author of the un-elect’s sin and condemnation, rather than their sin and condemnation on themselves.
In an article written by Tony Warren called ‘Double Predestination (Intrinsical or Interpretive)’, he states the following:
For further reading please go to: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/double_predestination.html
I would like to get some feedback on this line of reasoning, especially calling this preordination, rather than double predestination.

Tom,

As previously explained, it is utterly impossible to hold that God 'actively' predestinates some to eternal life but contrariwise, God is totally passive in regard to those who are not predestinated. To limit predestination to only salvation is not only illogical, it is simply unbiblical and contrary to many passages that speak of God's omnipotence and omniscience.

1. Did God foreordain ALL THINGS or did He not? (Ps 33:11; 135:6; Isa 41:22,23; 43:11-13; 44:7; 46:9,10; Dan 4:35; Rom 11:33-36; Eph 1:9-11.)
2. Did not God foredain the Fall and the end of each individual who would be effected by that Fall? Thus, God ordained, predestined, appointed some to eternal life in Christ Jesus to the praise of His glory in mercy and grace and some to eternal damnation for the glory of His justice. (Rom 9:21,22; 1Peter 2:8; 2Peter 2:3,17; Jude 1:4,6,13; cf. Acts 2:22,23; 3:18; 4:28; 1Thess 5:9; Rev 13:8)
   *There is no escaping either the biblical teaching concerning God's direct predestinating the end (pre-determine according to His divine will) of each and every individual. It was according to God's eternal counsel (foreordination) that the entire human race should be liable to judgment in conjunction with the federal head of the human race; Adam (Rom 5:12-18; 1Cor 15:21,22). Thus, all men are by nature under the wrath and just condemnation of God who ordained ALL THINGS. There is no 'Deism' to be found with the God of the Bible, i.e., God created the 'basic plan and parts' and then sits back and observes how things 'work out'. In short, since God ordained the Fall, thus consigning all men to condemnation, it cannot be maintained that God did not predestinate any to reprobation.
3. Election, a subset of predestination, is God's display of love, mercy and grace to save a remnant from the Fall and its consequences in Christ. Yes, God changes the nature of the elect in order to bring about their salvation and the end to which they have been predestinated. But God does not change the nature of those whom He has predestined to perdition; thus "positive/negative" predestination. There is no need for God to 'intervene' in the same manner as is done with the elect, for God has previously ordained the Fall and their end.

So, in short and once again, there is no logical nor biblical escaping from the fact that God predestinates (pre-determines, appoints, decrees, foreordains) the damnation of the wicked no less than He predestinates (pre-determines, appoints, decrees, foreordains) the election to salvation of those whom He has set His infinite love in Christ.

Pilgrim

You are preaching to the choir here, so unless I missed something in your post; it wasn't what I had in mind when I asked for feedback.

Can you deal with what Mr. Tony Warren calls "preordination" as he describes it in the quote.
Basically I am asking for this in order to understand his position better in order to talk to a friend who takes a similar position to Mr. Warren.

Like Tony Warren when I describe what I mean by "double predestination" he has no problem with it. Yet like Mr. Warren he disagrees that this is double predestination.

Tom

Tom,

IF you would take just a little time to actually look at the several references I provided in my reply, you would see that several different words are used to describe God's sovereign predestination of BOTH the elect and reprobate, e.g., predestinate, appoint, ordain, etc. It is thus indefensible to bifurcate the two terms which Warren does in order to try and escape the inescapable biblical truth that God predestinates, predetermines the end of those whom He has chosen to save and those whom He has chosen to damn. Playing word games can't obviate the fact that EVERYTHING has been foreordained by God.

Pilgrim

Forgive me if it looks like I never took the time to actually look at the references you provided. Truth be told, this is stretching the grey matter between my ears.
This has never deterred me from trying to learn, but unfortunately it sometimes causes others some frustration.

I understand this matter at least enough to believe in "double predestination". But, I am still trying to form coherent thoughts so I can at least hold my own with my friend.
What I hope to do, is take the applicable Scripture verses and exegete them in a manner that I think is coherent enough for my friend to think this matter through more fully. I am not saying that this will convince him, but knowing him and his integrity he will think the matter through.

By the way about my friend, he and I are basically in agreement over this matter and perhaps in a way it is a matter of semantics between us. However, he believes that calling this doctrine "double predestination" is not warranted from Scripture.
I hope you understand where I am coming from.
My friend and I usually meet over coffee to discuss things like theology and encourage each other in the faith.

Tom

Tom,

For me it isn't 'brain surgery'... IF predestination = pre-determination, then what is the objection that God pre-determined the end of the wicked no less than the end of the elect? Substituting a word, e.g., foreordination for predestination does nothing because to foreordain simply means to order, determine, decree something before it occurs. No matter which way someone tries to weasel out of using the term predestination in regard to the end of the wicked, the result is always the same... God from all eternity decreed the Fall, decreed that Jesus Christ would be a Redeemer for fallen mankind and then decreed that a remnant of the entire human race would be redeemed in Christ (aka: elect) and the remainder would suffer eternal punishment. Thus God 'ordained', 'predestinated', 'determined', 'decreed' reprobation.

It's biblical and thus logical. But to deny that God decreed, foreordained, predestinated, appointed the damnation of a specific number of people is to deny not only the absolute sovereignty of God but also God's unassailable divine providence.

The classic and infamous passage which sets it in full view is of course:

Romans 9:11-13 ASV "for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, (12) it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (13) Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Not only do you have a direct, propositional statement that it is God's eternal will that Esau would be damned and Jacob saved (the remainder of the chapter establishes this indisputable fact), and the purpose for it; election which is a specific application of predestination, but you have the 'motive' behind God's pre-determination, aka: predestination; hate and love. The objections then flow like water which Paul then answers pointedly. The objectors are full aware of what Paul was saying which evidently your friend and/or Tony Warren do not.

Tom,
What you have described here is what is known as the"positive-positive" view of predestination.That is, God positively and actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to bring them to salvation.In the same way God positively and actively intervenes in the life of the reprobate to bring him to sin.This distortion of "positive-positive" predestination clearly makes God the author of sin which is an assault on God's integrity and His word.
If you have not already done so I suggest reading R.C. Sproul's article on "Double Predestination".It is archived here.A summary of what Dr. Sproul has to say is found in his examination of Emil Brunner's position on predestination.Speaking of Brunner,he says;(1)there is a divine decree of election that is eternal;(2)that divine decree is particular in scope (There are those who are not elect);(3)yet there is no decree of reprobation. Consider the implications.If God has predestined some but not all to election, does it not follow by what Luther called a "resistless logic" that some are not predestined to election? If, as Brunner maintaines,all salvation is based upon the eternal election of God and not all men are elect from eternity,does that not mean that from eternity there are non-elect who most certainly will not be saved? Has not God chosen from eternity not to elect some people?If so, then we have an eternal choice of non-election which we call reprobation.The inference is clear and necessary yet some shrink from drawing it.

Here is the link to the article Sojourner referred to

Double Predestination