After reading your list of "Favorite Authors" and your replies to some of the messages posted in the Open Forum, I am very curious about a few things. If you are willing, I would appreciate it if you would answer a few of the many questions I have about what you embrace theologically. [*]Can you please tell me, according to your belief, who Jesus Christ was/is?[*]Similarly, do you hold to the historic doctrine of the Trinity as set forth in the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds?[*]What is your view of Scripture? e.g., do you accept its self-attestation of divine inspiration?[*]Would you affirm the historicity of the creation and that of Adam and Eve, the virgin birth, etc.?[/LIST]I guess that would be a good start.
Pilgrim,<br><br>you ask: <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>After reading your list of "Favorite Authors" and your replies to some of the messages posted in the Open Forum, I am very curious about a few things. If you are willing, I would appreciate it if you would answer a few of the many questions I have about what you embrace theologically. <br><br>Can you please tell me, according to your belief, who Jesus Christ was/is?<br><br>Similarly, do you hold to the historic doctrine of the Trinity as set forth in the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds?<br><br>What is your view of Scripture? e.g., do you accept its self-attestation of divine inspiration?<br><br>Would you affirm the historicity of the creation and that of Adam and Eve, the virgin birth, etc.?<br><br>I guess that would be a good start. <br><br><br>In His Grace, <p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Pilgrim let me quote from website of my church, Community of Christ.<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Our Faith and Beliefs <br><br>Recognizing that the perception of truth is always qualified by human nature and experience, there is no official church creed that must be accepted by all members. <br><br>However, through the years various statements, such as those listed below, have been developed to present the generally accepted beliefs of the church. All people are encouraged to study the scriptures, to participate in the life and mission of the church, and to examine their own experiences as they grow in understanding and response to the gospel of Jesus Christ. <br><br><br>God <br><br>The one eternal, living God is triune: one God in three persons. The God who meets us in the testimony of Israel is the same God who meets us in Jesus Christ, and who indwells creation as the Holy Spirit. God is the Eternal Creator, the source of love, life, and truth. God actively loves and cares for each person. All things that exist owe their being to God. God alone is worthy of our worship. <br><br>Jesus Christ <br><br>Jesus Christ is "God with us," the Son of God, and the living expression of God in the flesh. Jesus Christ lived, was crucified, died, and rose again. The nature, love, and purpose of God are most clearly seen in Jesus Christ, our Savior. <br><br>Spirit <br><br>The Holy Spirit is the continuing presence of God in the world. The Spirit works in our minds and hearts through intelligence, comfort, guidance, love, and power to sustain, inspire, and remake us. <p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>I believe the Bible to be the words of God written by human hands. That is I do not affirm its inerrancy. I believe that much in the Bible is of inestimable value & shows clearly God's Spirit at work but I also see much in the Bible which fosters racism, the enslavement of peoples, parochial Hebrew viewpoints & values, etc.<br><br>Quote from www.cofchrist.org <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Scripture <br><br>The scriptures provide divine guidance and inspired insight for life when responsibly interpreted and faithfully applied. With other Christians, we affirm the Bible as scripture for the church. In our tradition, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants are additional scriptural witnesses of God’s love and Christ’s ministry. <p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br><br>I do not believe that the world was created in six literal days & I note that the Hebrew in Genesis is more supportive of my POV than of the literalist one. As for Adam & Eve, I simply don't know.<br><br>As for the virgin birth, I recognise the very late provenance of that doctrine & also that the early church makes no mention of it as a dogma. Personally I believe that it is more of a miracle for God to use the ordinary procreative process than for (against all nature) a virgin to conceive & give birth.<br><br>Now you can excoriate me!
I believe the Bible to be the words of God written by human hands. That is I do not affirm its inerrancy. I believe that much in the Bible is of inestimable value & shows clearly God's Spirit at work but I also see much in the Bible which fosters racism, the enslavement of peoples, parochial Hebrew viewpoints & values, etc.
Excoriate you? I hardly think that is necessary (doubtless you have experienced this numerous times previous to coming here.) Nor would it prove to be efficacious in all probability.
Your view of Scripture is certainly not unexampled, either historically nor to my own experience in dealing with various people over the years. And although it certainly is novel, even illogical for one to hold who also lays claim to being a Christian, I find it fascinating in one sense. There is however, one particular question which I always find myself compelled to ask. And so, I shall do so now. Given, according to your view, that the Bible, being written by human hands is thus errant in it's content and design, how does one as yourself determine what is "truth"; truth as from God, inerrant and necessary to embrace and what is not? Put another way, what criteria do you use to discern that which is the husk of error and that which is the kernel of truth?
I look forward to your reply.
John Owen (1616-1683) wisely said: [color:blue]"Without absolutes revealed from without by God Himself, we are left rudderless in a sea of conflicting ideas about manners, justice and right and wrong, issuing from a multitude of self-opinionated thinkers."
Pilgrim,<br><br>You ask <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>And so, I shall do so now. Given, according to your view, that the Bible, being written by human hands is thus errant in it's content and design, <br><br>how does one as yourself determine what is "truth"; truth as from God, inerrant and necessary to embrace and what is not? <br><br>Put another way, what criteria do you use to discern that which is the husk of error and that which is the kernel of truth?<p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>What we need to do first is to clarify what we mean by inspiration, do we mean by that that God completely takes over the mind / will / abilities of the inspired one so that the words recorded are truly God's, ie, is it God's voice we hear when the inspired person speaks, God's voice without any "taint" of human weakness or foible<br><br>Or<br><br>Is it that God inspires a person to speak with the knowledge (on God's part) that the inspiration will at best be like Seeing darkly as in a mirror because the cultural matrix of the person, the questions that weigh most heavily on their minds, their education or lack of it, their prejudices will all come through.<br><br>It is the second example that I believe is closest to the truth of this matter. Indeed, I would go further, for when you or I come to read the words that this weak, bruised reed has said or written, it gets diluted further because it is then interpreted through the various filters of our individual minds and upbringings<br><br>So I how do I ascertain for myself the truth of a proposition?, For me there are a number of ways (all of which are trammeled by having to be filtered through my own personal cultural / education matrix.<br><br>Firstly, what is the sense of the whole of scripture?, How does the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants speak to me about whatever it is I am attempting to find a place whereon to stand.<br><br>How does that accord with my sense of God's leading in my own life?, What does my conscience have to say?, Deep down inside where my life intersects with the life of the trinity what is the response?<br><br>By these methods I take a leap of faith & place myself firmly in God's hands, knowing that where I end up tomorrow might well be different. This "changeableness", which occurs because I am mortal and limited & always learning, does not frighten me, rather it speaks to me of the true wondrousness of God, who is found in the margins of uncertainty, as of old, fellowshipping with the outcast, the heretic and the sinner.<br><br>Kiwimac
So I how do I ascertain for myself the truth of a proposition?, For me there are a number of ways (all of which are trammeled by having to be filtered through my own personal cultural / education matrix.
Firstly, what is the sense of the whole of scripture?, How does the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants speak to me about whatever it is I am attempting to find a place whereon to stand.
How does that accord with my sense of God's leading in my own life?, What does my conscience have to say?, Deep down inside where my life intersects [color:blue]with the life of the trinity what is the response?
I would be glad to interact with you on the matter of "inspiration" if you so desire. But I think I would prefer to continue dialoging with you concerning the above statements as they are an example of what I was asking about and do more to exacerbate the issue than answer it.
The Bible, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrines and Covenants are at great variance with each other, especially on what they teach concerning the being and nature of God. Yet, you make reference to the "trinity" in your reply? This seems to be antithetical to your methodology? How can you be certain that God is "triune"? or that the Lord Christ is one of the three persons of the divine Trinity, co-eternal, co-equal and of the same essence of the other two members of the Godhead?
I'm assuming, perhaps wrongly, that you embrace the deity of Jesus Christ. Would I be correct in this assumption? If so, then surely this creates an enormous problem in regard to your subjective methodology for ascertaining "truth", which perhaps you might define for me. For when I speak of "truth" I am speaking of "true truth"; propositional truth, which is infallible and inerrant for it comes from God, albeit through different means.
Hebrews 1:1-2 (ASV) "God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in [his] Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; . . ."
and
John 5:39 (ASV) "Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me;" . . . 17:8 "for the words which thou gavest me I have given unto them; and they received [them], and knew of a truth that I came forth from thee, and they believed that thou didst send me."
It would appear from what Jesus said, that the Scriptures are God's very own words. Further, the words which He spoke are the Father's very own words and He admonished all who heard Him to accept them as such; reliable, infallible and inerrant. He said, "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works." (John 14:10).
So, again, how can you consult these other sources, even your own subjective "feeling" and think that you can come to any apprehension of "truth"?
Kiwimac - I guess this talk about "man not living by bread alone but by every word that procedes from the mouth of God" is really an overstatement....or misunderstood by the Church for the past 2000 yrs. hmmm<br><br>Can I assume that you find contradictions in the OT/NT Bible...and if so, can you point out a few?<br><br>In Him, <br><br>
Kiwimac,<br><br>If you believe the Bible has errors in it, how do you decide what is an error and what is not an error? Awfully subjective, if you ask me!<br><br>Marie<br><br>
True godliness is a sincere feeling which loves God as Father as much as it fears and reverences Him as Lord, embraces His righteousness, and dreads offending Him worse than death~ Calvin
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