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#49541 Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:30 PM
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Tom Offline OP
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I would like to endorse Dr. Peter Masters article on John Piper and Christian Hedonism.
I have heard in the past by a few people that Dr. Peter Masters is prone to go overboard in many of his critiques.
However, if this article is any indication of "going overboard" that these people have accused him of. Then I must strongly disagree with their assessment of Dr. Masters.

I found Dr. Masters to be very fair and actually said some good things about John Piper. What I like about Dr. Masters critique he focused a lot on the Scripture passages that Piper uses to prove his points. He points out how Piper takes his own ideas to Scripture and doesn't think about the context of the passages. This of course is esogesis, rather than exegesis.

I must admit that I need to read the article again and look at the Scripture passages myself, to see for myself. However I get the feeling by what Dr. Masters wrote, that the truth should become evident when I do this.


All in all, if anyone hasn't read this article that Pilgrim made available I highly recommend that you do.
http://www.the-highway.com/christian-hedonism_Masters.html

Tom

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Tom,

1. It appears that your login problem has been resolved, yes? Since you didn't get back to me and you have offered a reply, then it appears to be the case. grin

2. Yes, Peter Masters does a fairly good job in taking Piper's heretical doctrine of "Christian Hedonism" to task by examining some of the fundamental passages of Scripture Piper bases his view upon and shows that he wrests them out of context, etc. BigThumbUp

3. However, you began this other thread focusing upon Piper's claim and his sheeple's echoing of that claim that Jonathan Edwards taught "Christian Hedonism" long before he did, i.e., greatly recognized men of the past, hundreds of years ago were teaching and preaching this doctrine. And you asked if this claim was true or false. I responded that the claim had no basis whatsoever and that anyone who REALLY read Edwards' writings would find no such teaching in them. It appears that Peter Masters agrees with my assessment of Piper's claim in this article. Hopefully, people will listen to what Peter Masters says even after turning a deaf ear to the rebuttals of one like myself who is but a lowly commoner. giggle Here are a couple of relevant quotes in regard to Piper's fallacious doctrine of "Christian Hedonism" and Jonathan Edwards:

Quote
Dr. Piper often quotes Jonathan Edwards, who said much about delighting in God and Christian joy. By reference to Jonathan Edwards, Dr. Piper effectively says, ‘Look, this is as old as the hills. This is the way our forebears thought.’ Certainly Jonathan Edwards provides choice passages about delighting in God, as did the English Puritan writers, but at no time does he frame a system in which this becomes the key principle of Christian living. Joy in God always sits alongside other equal duties.

Although Dr. Piper seeks to root his system in the past, he seems at the same time well aware that it is a brand new idea. Frequently, he virtually admits it by using the language of innovation, and saying, in so many words, ‘This is explosive’; ‘This is stunning’; ‘This is radical’; ‘This is dangerous’; ‘This is not safe’; ‘This is surprising’. Dr. Piper really knows that he is promoting something novel. He even uses the term, ‘my vision’, and that is what it is, for however well intended, it is Dr. Piper’s personal vision. He also calls it ‘my theology’.

Dr. Piper’s publisher calls his book a ‘paradigm-shattering work’, and bids the reader join Dr. Piper ‘as he stuns you again and again with life impacting truths you saw in the Bible, but never dared to believe.’ The reality is that no one ever saw them like this in the Bible until Dr. Piper pointed them out in the 1980s.
And again,

Quote
Or take Dr. Piper’s quoting of Jonathan Edwards, when he wrote - ‘God is glorified not only by His glory being seen, but by its being rejoiced in. When those that see it, delight in it, God is more glorified than if they only see it.’ Is Jonathan Edwards saying that delight in God is the channel and organising principle for all Christian activity and progress?

No, for we take account of the environment in which he ministered. His language was always influenced by the sickness of the society in which he lived. It was a church-going age. Practically everyone was theoretically a biblically enlightened, well-instructed Christian. Yet he was anxious to distinguish between those who had real spiritual life, and those who did not. His language here cuts between those two groups. It reflects the burden of his message: that you can be a merely theoretical Christian, or you can be a spiritually alive Christian. The former will only see, whereas the latter will be filled with passion. Equally, his words challenge a cold or backslidden believer to resume a fervent walk with the Lord. There is no implied endorsement of Dr. Piper’s unique system of sanctification.


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simul iustus et peccator

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Tom Offline OP
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Pilgrim

Sorry I didn't get back to you concerning my log in problems. For the most part after I got rid of the cookies my problem is fixed. Though I still need to log in every time I come into the forum; but I can put up with that.
Thanks for the help.

Concerning Piper and his use of Edwards to support his thesis, although I did not mention it in this thread, never the less it is something I did notice.
I agree with you; though I understand how someone could mistakenly think Edwards supports Christian Hedonism. I know some Reformed Christians who are a lot more knowledgeable than me who think Piper is correct about Edwards. Not all of them agree with Christian Hedonism either.
As it stands now, at least I have something solid in which I can refer back to if/when I ever have a conversation like this again.
For that I am thankful to you and Dr. Masters. cheers2
Tom

Last edited by Tom; Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:52 AM.
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Originally Posted by Tom
Sorry I didn't get back to you concerning my log in problems. For the most part after I got rid of the cookies my problem is fixed. Though I still need to log in every time I come into the forum; but I can put up with that.
Thanks for the help.
Just as an aside, make sure you put a check in the box for the "keep me logged in" or "remember me" (can't remember how it is phrased giggle) option when you first login.

And, IF you are using a utility, such as CCleaner, on a regular basis, which deletes your browsing history, temporary Internet files, etc., including 'cookies', you will need to open the "Options" section, in the case of CCleaner, and move the cookie for this forum over from the "Cookies to delete" section on the left to the "Cookies to keep" section on the right. The best way to do that is to run the "Cleaner" first, then visit the board, login, close your browser, and then open CCleaner > Options > Cookies. That way, there will only be one or very few other entries to deal with making the cookie for here easy to find. wink

It is possible, also that you have enabled an option in your browser to delete all cookies upon closing. IF that is the case, then you will have to disable that.

The result, of course, will eliminate the need to login each time you visit here.


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Tom Offline OP
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Pilgrim

Just to let you know every time I have logged in I did check that box.
I will say however, that perhaps my problem has resolved itself, as this time when I came into the forums I didn't have to log on. grin

Tom


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