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#51370
Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:23 PM
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Hi Is the following argument a good way to prove the Reformed doctrine of election? Why or why not? However, all one really needs to do to prove the doctrine of election, is to think about the OT. Up until Pentecost the Jews were the only ones who were given the opportunity to be saved; with just a few exceptions. The Jews were a relatively small nation of people, yet we know that all the rest of the people on earth died in their sins. They had no knowledge about the only way of salvation. Most Arminians understand this, but do not seem to grasp the fact that this is a major proof of the doctrine of election. This disconnect that they have would not think to say that God was unfair in choosing the Jews and not other people of the world. Yet they still say that the Reformed view of election is unfair. Tom
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Is the following argument a good way to prove the Reformed doctrine of election? Why or why not? However, all one really needs to do to prove the doctrine of election, is to think about the OT. Up until Pentecost the Jews were the only ones who were given the opportunity to be saved; with just a few exceptions. The Jews were a relatively small nation of people, yet we know that all the rest of the people on earth died in their sins. They had no knowledge about the only way of salvation. Most Arminians understand this, but do not seem to grasp the fact that this is a major proof of the doctrine of election. This disconnect that they have would not think to say that God was unfair in choosing the Jews and not other people of the world. Yet they still say that the Reformed view of election is unfair. Tom No, this is hardly a 'proof' for the Reformed view of election. The passage is showing a temporal 'election'; Israel being chosen as a vessel and type through which God was to work to bring about salvation. But God's decree to predestinate and elect a select people from Adam's fallen race is not addressed. Remember, that the vast majority of Israel likewise perished in unbelief, not just the Gentile world. Romans 9:6 (ASV) "But [it is] not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:" So many among the Israelites were lost that it appeared that God's promise to Abraham had failed. But Paul says that is definitely not the case for a remnant within Israel was saved (predestinated and elected to salvation in Christ).
simul iustus et peccator
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Pilgrim Perhaps what should have been included in the message was to make sure it was understood that it was talking about "elect Isreal". The point being the elect up until a certain time, there were only elect people in the nation of Isreal, not other nations. Tom
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Joined: Apr 2001
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Pilgrim Perhaps what should have been included in the message was to make sure it was understood that it was talking about "elect Isreal". The point being the elect up until a certain time, there were only elect people in the nation of Isreal, not other nations. Tom That would help narrow things down, however, it wasn't elect Israel "who were given an opportunity to be saved" but rather who WERE saved. Deut 7ff, 14:2, 26:19, 28:9. It is true that the entire nation was given the means by which salvation comes, cf. Rom 3:2, 11:1-7. Here are just a few passages which show God's eternal election in the OT: Deut 10:14,15; Ps 33:12, 65:44, 106:5; Hag 2:23. Perhaps Noah would be a little more helpful? Even though his entire family wasn't regenerate, they were spared, but "righteous Noah" was saved.
simul iustus et peccator
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Joined: Apr 2001
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Needs to get a Life
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Needs to get a Life
Joined: Apr 2001
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Pilgrim Perhaps what should have been included in the message was to make sure it was understood that it was talking about "elect Isreal". The point being the elect up until a certain time, there were only elect people in the nation of Isreal, not other nations. Tom That would help narrow things down, however, it wasn't elect Israel "who were given an opportunity to be saved" but rather who WERE saved. Deut 7ff, 14:2, 26:19, 28:9. It is true that the entire nation was given the means by which salvation comes, cf. Rom 3:2, 11:1-7. Here are just a few passages which show God's eternal election in the OT: Deut 10:14,15; Ps 33:12, 65:44, 106:5; Hag 2:23. Perhaps Noah would be a little more helpful? Even though his entire family wasn't regenerate, they were spared, but "righteous Noah" was saved. Ha ha, you are absolutely correct about the wording "who were given an opportunity to be saved" being wrong. Why didn't I notice that? Of course they were saved and not merely given the opportunity to be saved; as though the elect could resist God's drawing to be saved. I guess this is one of the major reasons book writers have editors. This is why I bring questions like this to this board. Thanks brother Tom
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