The Highway Forums General Discussion Theology Discussion Forum Was She Saved?

I have a friend who recently died. She said she was a Christian and definitely demonstrated the fruits of the Spirit in the way she lived. She told everyone she met that Jesus was her Savior. She pointed all that met her toward Jesus.

However, her favorite pastors were Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, Kenneth Hagin, Andrew Wommack etc. She believed and told others what these charismatic word of faith preachers taught.

Do you think that she was really saved? I know that only God truly knows a person's heart, but out of the heart the mouth speaks.

I hesitate to say one way or another whether your friend was saved.
Years ago now, I was part of the Word of Faith movement.
Yet, I think I was actually saved even back then.
The difference however, is God eventually showed me that the movement was heretical and I could no longer be part of them.
I think it needs to be said that you can not at this point do anything about your friend. So although it is right for you to go through a grieving process, you need to leave the matter of whether she was truly a Christian in the hands of your loving Lord. He is sovereign.
Tom

Thank you, Tom, and I have. Then I read other threads like The god of Arminianism and it makes me wonder.

Pilgrim said, 1. No one is saved because they believe right doctrine. But no one is saved without it either. A false gospel does not and cannot save a soul. This is so clearly taught in Scripture it needs no defense, e.g., Gal 1:6-9; 2Cor 11:3,4; et al.

2. Spurgeon was adamant that Calvinism IS the gospel and I heartily agree.

3. J.I. Packer presents the difference between the false gospel devised of men to produce 'converts' (what are they converted to?) giggle and the gospel of Scripture HERE.

4. I have written a little booklet on what the minimum should be included in a true presentation of the true gospel A Gospel Summary. And I have written a little help tutorial on how to show the difference between salvation by 'grace + works" vs. salvation by grace ALONE Do You Really Believe that Salvation is by Grace ALONE?.

5. And of course, the First Commandment forbids any and all forms of idolatry. Thus, it is essential that one love and embrace the One True God of Scripture and not some fabricated 'god' of man's imagination (3rd Commandment). As one Puritan once wrote, "In the beginning God created man in His own image. And, ever since that day man has been trying to return the favor.

Pilgrim, can you comment on my question?
Thanks again, Tom and you are right I can do nothing about it now.

1. TRUE: "only God truly knows a person's heart".

2. TRUE: "out of the heart the mouth speaks".

3. On the most basic level, what counts is what a person believes in regard to Christ's righteousness. Is a person's assurance based SOLELY upon Christ's active and passive obedience and the merit HE accomplished in His atonement and that imputed to him/her. If, however, as is most common within modern Christianity, that one believes that the primary difference between himself/herself and those who are not saved is that they "chose Jesus", "asked Jesus into their hearts", etc., then their faith does NOT rest SOLELY upon Christ and His righteousness... salvation then becomes synergistic. See my short tutorial here: Do You REALLY Believe that Salvation is by Grace Alone?.

Another indication of one's regeneration/salvation is whether or not the Spirit of God brought upon them a deep conviction of sin, i.e., their own personal SINFULNESS. Have they ever confessed and continue to confess with Paul that "there is no good thing within me"? Saving faith is ALWAYS inextricably joined with repentance.

Lastly, one is not saved BECAUSE they believe right doctrine. However, one is not saved without believing right doctrine. This person's "favorite pastors" are all seriously heretical on the most basic doctrines of the faith, e.g., the person and work of Christ, the nature and person of the triune God, justification, sanctification, etc., etc. That being the indisputable truth, what Jesus did she profess to believe in? (cf. 2Cor 11:4; Gal 1:7-9) Yes, it is remotely possible that she was brought to the true knowledge of Christ and her need of reconciliation with God by grace through faith by reading Scripture. But in most every case where a person comes to true faith in the biblical Christ, they remove themselves from the false teachers they were sitting under (Ps 1).

I have no personal knowledge of this person you are asking about. However, given what little information you have here, I could not have any confidence that this person was saved. No church worth its salt would receive such a person who embraces those false teachers and their heresy into membership, i.e., they would not accept her testimony as being 'credible'.

Just so you know, I agree with Pilgrim. However, I thought it was better to emphasize God's sovereignty in this case.
Having been a former Word of Faith member, I know all too well that they preach heresy.
In fact a rant of mine, is that all too often when I visit Christian friends, that hold to the doctrines of grace. Is I find books on their coffee tables written by people like Joyce Meyers and Sarah Young wiith her book 'Jesus Calling".
It grieves my heart, because when I bring up the books and their authors, they look at me like I have three eyes or something.

Tom

Thanks, Pilgrim. I want to clarify one point

You said, "Lastly, one is not saved BECAUSE they believe right doctrine. However, one is not saved without believing right doctrine."

Does this mean that if one is truly saved when he reaches out to Jesus in faith he knows that he did nothing to accomplish his salvation, even the faith he has is a gift?

Let me first attempt to explain my statement by quoting something I have previously written HERE:

2. The Spirit of God comes to the elect in the appointed time in circumstances ordained by God from eternity. Remember, God ordains the MEANS as well as the END. Thus, someone who speaks of Christ in the gospel is provided through which the Spirit works regeneration in the elect sinner, creating faith, etc. by which the person embraces the true Christ with his/her mind, affections and will. It isn't a matter of how much right doctrine is known, but rather what doctrine is understood is "true truth" as Francis Schaeffer used to say. The man born blind is a good example of one who knew a minimum of doctrine, but he knew that he was saved totally by the Lord Jesus Christ; 'whereas I was blind but now I see' (Jh 9:25). Of course, this is an example of the exception vs. what is typically the case in regard to information/doctrine known.

3. To answer your question directly and simply... Yes, when a sinner is given a new nature, aka; regeneration, there are two fundamental things the person knows in his/her very soul: a) personal SINFULNESS, not just that some things have been done which are not perfect. This is the conviction of sin whereby the person's guiltiness is indelibly impressed upon the heart and it is known and felt (intellect & affections/emotions) that they are justly condemned by God. b) God's HOLINESS is revealed insomuch that the person is struck down in his/her being as is so marvelously shown in Scripture when they were approached by God or in the person of the Lord Christ, His deity was revealed, e.g., (2Sam 9:8; Isa 6:5; Lk 5:8; Lk 18:13,14, et al). Calvin wrote, and I heartily agree, it is not known what comes first, the knowledge of one's unfathomable sinfulness or the infinite holiness of God. But both are always present when a person is genuinely converted. The quantity of that knowledge varies greatly, but the quality (verity) of that knowledge is the same.

Thank you, Pilgrim.