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#52172 Wed May 25, 2016 9:35 AM
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My church ex-pastor who pastored the church from late 70s to 1989 preached last Sunday. It is something I gathered from hearing what others said about him, but I don't think he is Reformed in his theology. He is a strong Presbyterian, but in his sermon I could tell he lets evangelism trump over Reformed doctrine. If he is Reformed he hides it well. I know he was a leading member in the Presbyterian Evangelical Fellowship.

I am wondering if anyone can steer me to some source material on topics such as the PEF commitment to Reformed theology. In addition, I suspect the northern Presbyterian churches were more Reformed than its southern counterparts. Even though the southern church remained conservative longer, it seemed less Reformed and more evangelistic. Therefore in the early years of the PCA, there were many pastors who though conservative were not Reformed.


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John
I can't answer your question. However, I am curious what you mean by letting evangelism trump Reformed Doctrine.
I am sure you are aware that some of the greatest evangelists were Reformed.
Reformed theology should free us to evangelize, not stifle it.
Tom

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Tom, I do not disagree with your assessment.

What I meant mostly was only focusing on evangelizing the lost, and not teaching doctrine. The idea that doctrine is divisive and unnecessary.


John Chaney

"having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith . . ." Colossians 2:7
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Ok, unfortunately I have experienced the sentiment that doctrine divides. I have family members, whom I feel that I need to be careful around. Sigh...
Doctrine should inform how we are to evangelize. Come to think about it, even when someone emphasizes evangelism over doctrine. It is their doctrine that is informing them.
There is an excellent article on the Highway on that very topic,

Tom

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Originally Posted by John_C
It is something I gathered from hearing what others said about him, but I don't think he is Reformed in his theology. He is a strong Presbyterian, but in his sermon I could tell he lets evangelism trump over Reformed doctrine.
1. IF he is not "Reformed" then how in the world can he be a strong "Presbyterian"? Presbyterianism is defined by the Westminster Standards which are unquestionably Reformed.

2. I am going to assume that this man's "evangelism" contains nothing of the Reformed Faith... which would mean what he preached was a false gospel. The Gospel is the proclamation of God's revealed truth about God, Christ, the Fall, man's fallen state/depravity/inability, redemption in Christ by grace, through faith and His imputed righteousness. See my short article on the main website which was recently published: A Gospel Summary.

In case you have never read J.I. Packer's little book, Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God I would highly recommend you get a copy and read it through. It is a marvelous book that extols God as the Sovereign Creator and Ruler of all and it is that attribute which is the true motivation for evangelism. BigThumbUp


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Pilgrim #52179 Thu May 26, 2016 8:08 AM
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Pilgrim wrote,
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"1. IF he is not "Reformed" then how in the world can he be a strong "Presbyterian"? Presbyterianism is defined by the Westminster Standards which are unquestionably Reformed.'

I understand Reformed theology when it comes to evangelism. I am interesting in finding out more in the history of Presbyterian church in the south when it comes to Reformed doctrine. There seem to be many, whether is was just a quarter, a third, a half or more, in the southern church who though were thoroughly conservative adopted more of an universal view on the atonement. And for some reason they cherish holding on to Presbyterianism, though at odds with some of the standards. I just wonder if that is so, and how it begin. There must be reason for it in its history. This was especially in the last few decades before the conservatives pulled out of the southern church to form the PCA. I think the PCA had that tension early on (4-pointers vs 5-pointers), but from the early 80s on, not so much. There are other problems at play now.

Now for this pastor, he could probably state the right doctrine in a back room or meeting with pastors, but he apparently feels that parts of Reformed doctrine is a hindrance to the advancement of the gospel. Maybe the reason why he feels so strongly for evangelism and missionary work is that he left the church pastorate to become a missionary.

Last edited by John_C; Thu May 26, 2016 8:14 AM.

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Last edited by AJ Castellitto; Thu May 26, 2016 9:50 AM.
John_C #52181 Thu May 26, 2016 11:54 AM
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As I was reading what John had to say, partially about his supposed belief that Reformed doctrine hinders evangelism. What came to mind is reading the evangelist sermons of men like George Whitefield, CH Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, etc...
Let this pastor try to say that their evangistic sermons hindered evangelism.
What he seems to have fallen prey to is pragmatism, forgetting the fact that the Gospel is the power of God...
Tom

John_C #52184 Thu May 26, 2016 3:22 PM
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Originally Posted by John_C
There seem to be many, whether is was just a quarter, a third, a half or more, in the southern church who though were thoroughly conservative adopted more of an universal view on the atonement. And for some reason they cherish holding on to Presbyterianism, though at odds with some of the standards.[quote]
Could you please supply the source of that statement that a large number of people in the Southern Presbyterian Church held to a universal view of the atonement?

[quote=John_C]Now for this pastor, he could probably state the right doctrine in a back room or meeting with pastors, but he apparently feels that parts of Reformed doctrine is a hindrance to the advancement of the gospel. Maybe the reason why he feels so strongly for evangelism and missionary work is that he left the church pastorate to become a missionary.
I have found this to be true on a large scale. Missionaries tend to mouth the right things when home on furlough and present glowing examples of success in their work... and then plead for continued and/or increased financial support. But in the field, I have found few who are actually preaching/teaching the true gospel. Far too many are pragmatic in their methods and errant in doctrine. This I have seen personally and I have been told by reliable sources, missionaries who are solidly and consistently biblical themselves of the wide-spread teaching of heresy and allowing of pagan practices among those in the field. Many think that this is only to be found among those of the Roman Catholic Church which is infamous for practicing 'assimilation'. But that is simply not true. Some of the leading members of the Gospel Coalition hold this unbiblical practice to be acceptable and encourage their hearers to do so.

Asahel Nettleton, George Whitfield, et al like them were godly men who were doctrinally sound and preached the Gospel without compromise. But remember too that Charles Finney was also an evangelist and a damnable heretic and who was lauded by the masses, even by such men as Billy Graham. I have no reservations in stating that I believe the majority of missionaries are of the Finney variety. But that there is a remnant of faithful missionaries who despite not having the "success" claimed by the majority, labor day and night bringing the biblical Gospel to the lost.


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Pilgrim #52190 Thu May 26, 2016 9:06 PM
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I suppose this was a question to me that was inside a bigger quote,
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"Could you please supply the source of that statement that a large number of people in the Southern Presbyterian Church held to a universal view of the atonement?
. So here is my answer and thoughts.

I became a Christian back in the late 70s, and I ran across several pastors who wouldn't assent to the 5-points of Calvinism. They more or less avoided talking about that doctrine. These pastors had solid reputations within the southern church which included the PCA in its early days. As I said, many might only be no more than a quarter at most, but it was more than a sprinkling of them. It might stem from the new influence of the conservative movement which had Billy Graham father-in-law as one of its primary leaders. His last name was Bell, but I cannot think of his first name. These pastors I knew were very focus on evangelism. And several belong to the PEF. In the early 80s, the PCA became strongly 5-pointers as these older pastors retired, and the younger pastors attended Reformed seminaries. I think if you read some of Morton Smith stuff, he will cite some of the theological arguments that were held in the formation of the PCA. Some wanted it to be a strong Reformed church, while others wanted it more as a conservative, biblical, evangelistic church. I don't know the percentage makeup of the two groups, and that is somewhat what I'm trying to find out. Plus going along with that tought, was the southern Presbyterian church always less Reformed than the northern Presbyterian church, though the northern churches became liberal much quicker. Machen led conservatives out of the northern church in 1937 (I believe), but it took longer for the conservatives to finally give up hope with the southern church by starting a new denomination in 1973.

Last edited by John_C; Thu May 26, 2016 9:13 PM.

John Chaney

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John_C #52191 Thu May 26, 2016 9:17 PM
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I kind of feel like Big Evangelism and Fundamentalism is more of a Southern culture thing.... I wonder if that has something to do with it.... I get the feeling the South is more dispensationalist or dominionist ala America is a Christian nation type mentality.... But I could be stereotyping.... I blog on faith and politics and I've come close to being caught up with the fundamentalists... But Reformed Theology and the giants of the faith are just to sound to give up

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Pilgrim #52192 Fri May 27, 2016 1:37 AM
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Several years ago, we as a local Church found out that one of missionaries was using "Purpose Driven Life" material in their missionary work. After going to that missionary and telling them our concerns, it became clear that they were not going to stop using this material; so we dropped them as missionaries. That made us realize that we should be re-evaluating all our missionaries we supported. As a result of that, we now only support 4 missionaries. Our remaining missionaries are actually quite thankful because it shows we actually care more about what they believe and practice. We also are more aware of their needs.

Pilgrim you also said:
Quote
Some of the leading members of the Gospel Coalition hold this unbiblical practice to be acceptable and encourage their hearers to do so.
.

Although over the years I have been blessed by the teaching of a few members of the Gospel Coalition. Never the less, in recent years I and my pastor have been increasingly concerned about the organization as a whole. Mainly, how can supposedly doctrinaly sound pastors and theologians associate themselves with a pastor such as Tim Keller. Who believes in a number of heresies such as 'Theistic evolution' and a form of New Age Prayer called 'The Way of the Monk"?
I know personally Reformed Christians (including myself) who have tried to get to the bottom of this, by trying to contact them. So far I know of nobody who has received even one response back.
Years ago I read a book on evangelism by Mark Dever (which I was recommended by RC Sproul's ministry) that I rate right up there with JI Packer's 'Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God'. However, the fact that he is a member of the Gospel Coalition, makes me wonder if he truly believes what he wrote in that book?

Pilgrim, can you give a/some specific examples of a pragmatic practice of the Gospel Coalition that causes you a lot of concern?


Tom

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John_C #52193 Fri May 27, 2016 4:53 AM
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Just to add to my previous post, in the States, too many churches, even so called Reformed, are preoccupied with the 'culture war' and fighting Liberalism in the world.

While somebody like J. Machen knew where the fight needed to be fought.... The church

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Tim Keller is a prime example but should NOT be taken as representing the view of other members of the Gospel Coalition. He stands or falls on his own, although how any of who I once considered sound men and are now part of the GC can continue associating with men like Keller and others escapes me. dizzy

1. Keller's False Gospel

2. DECONSTRUCTING DEFEATER BELIEFS: Leading the Secular to Christ


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Anthony C. #52198 Fri May 27, 2016 9:12 AM
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In southern Presbyterianism, it would be interesting to discover how Scottish Presbyterianism and popular evangelism became so intertwined. I haven't read enough about Dabney or Thornwell to know their exact theology, though both are considered the South's greatest Presbyterian theologians; however, there must have been someone who led the merging of the two. Was it there before liberalism raised its ugly head, or was it introduced when conservatives started fighting back.


John Chaney

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