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#52856 - Monday, January 9, 2017 6:07 PM Enough with the 4 pointers
Mckinley Offline
Journeyman

Registered: Sunday, May 12, 2013
Posts: 97
Loc: Ga. U.S.A.
Why is it that many want to claim to be Reformed and even acknowledge that they proudly hold to being a 4 point Calvinist,.. my question stems with this declaration, what is Amyraldism, and how wrong is this theology?
_________________________
"A man may be theologically knowing and spiritually ignorant." STEPHEN CHARNOCK

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#52857 - Tuesday, January 10, 2017 9:17 PM Re: Enough with the 4 pointers [Re: Mckinley]
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life

Registered: Sunday, April 8, 2001
Posts: 4285
Loc: Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
Your question reminded me of a quote.
"The doctrines of grace stand or fall together, and together they point to one central truth: salvation is all of grace because it is all of God; and because it is all of God, it is all for His glory."
James Montgomery Boice



Edited by Tom (Tuesday, January 10, 2017 9:23 PM)

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#52859 - Wednesday, January 11, 2017 7:39 AM Re: Enough with the 4 pointers [Re: Mckinley]
goldenoldie Offline
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Registered: Friday, May 18, 2012
Posts: 30
Loc: Masschusetts, USA
The typical four-pointer claims he denies Limited Atonement, but when his understanding of the remaining four points is checked, it often ends up that he is mistaken as well.

What is more insidious is the notion held by many four- or even five-pointers that God DESIRES the salvation of each and every person (without exception). It is this notion that is the motivation for Amyraldianism.


Edited by goldenoldie (Wednesday, January 11, 2017 7:42 AM)
_________________________
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

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#52860 - Wednesday, January 11, 2017 8:09 AM Re: Enough with the 4 pointers [Re: goldenoldie]
Pilgrim Offline

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Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13924
Loc: NH, USA
Just to briefly weigh in on this discussion... Among the framers of the WCF, there were a few who held to a quasi-Amyraldian view. They insisted that they rejected Amyraldianism but their view was very similar. During the deliberations among the whole, these men's view was rejected which is evident from what the Confession states regarding the atonement. Yet... from what I've been able to glean over the years, those who held to this spurious view were otherwise quite solid. There may have been exceptions, of course.

In our day, goldenoldie is quite correct, i.e., those who hold to a 4-Point "Calvinism", so they claim are off on several of the other points. We have had at least one individual on this Board that showed a departure in other areas as well. On the main Main Website in the Atonement section, there are 5 arguments (exegetical) on particular passages by Gary Long which shows the differences between the historic, confessional Calvinist view and the others. Getting acquainted with those other views in comparison, I believe, would be most helpful to those who are either not familiar with the various views or those who would like clarification of them.

In His service and grace,
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#52875 - Friday, January 27, 2017 8:23 AM Re: Enough with the 4 pointers [Re: Mckinley]
JesusFan Offline
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Registered: Thursday, January 26, 2017
Posts: 148
Loc: Macomb Michigan
Think that some have a problem with limited atonement view, as they desire to keep that aspect of the atonement. Many Baptists like myself are so called 4 pointers, as I once was such after coming out of Dispy circle, but now am a 5 pointer!
Think RC Sprould considers tho9se in 4 points to be confused calvinists.

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#52876 - Friday, January 27, 2017 8:35 AM Re: Enough with the 4 pointers [Re: Pilgrim]
JesusFan Offline
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Registered: Thursday, January 26, 2017
Posts: 148
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The sticking point on this issue to those of that understanding would be that they see it as a potential salvation offerred to all, legitimate offer to all sinners, adthey cannot accept that God intended to just save out a remant from humanity.

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#52877 - Friday, January 27, 2017 11:20 AM Re: Enough with the 4 pointers [Re: JesusFan]
Pilgrim Offline

Head Honcho

Registered: Tuesday, April 3, 2001
Posts: 13924
Loc: NH, USA
Originally Posted By: JesusFan
The sticking point on this issue to those of that understanding would be that they see it as a potential salvation offerred to all, legitimate offer to all sinners, adthey cannot accept that God intended to just save out a remant from humanity.

Welcome to the Discussing Board

1. The Gospel is indiscriminate (no restrictions) in its proclamation, i.e., the Gospel is to be preached/taught to all. Why? Because ALL are sinners in need of salvation and those who bring the Gospel have no knowledge of who will believe.

2. The salvation proclaimed in the Gospel is a "legitimate offer" to ALL who repent and believe. There is no "potentiality" of salvation in the sense that a person makes it a reality if they add to it by some alleged "free-will" acceptance of it. The promise of salvation is infallibly sure to those who believe because the Spirit of God regenerates (makes a sinner able and willing) to those whom God has chosen to save.

3. Those who reject limited/definite atonement/particular redemption do so because the reject the doctrine of Total Depravity. NO ONE seeks after God. NO ONE desires to be saved. NO ONE believes that they are DEAD in sin and thus hate God, hate Christ, hate righteousness, hate holiness, in fact, they hate all that is good. Further, NO ONE has the ability to any of the previous including repent and believe upon the Lord Christ by nature. Truly, the Gospel is foolishness to the natural man.

4. Lastly, their inability to understand how/why God intended to save just a remnant of the human race is the logical result of their rejection of the doctrine of Total Depravity and therefore ALL are under the judgment and wrath of God and worthy of nothing but eternal punishment. The right question anyone should ask is, "How is it possible that God intended to love ANYONE and predestinated to save them unto His glorious grace." Who has the right to be saved? Under what obligation does the thrice Holy God have that He must save even one sinner? All who are saved are saved by free sovereign grace. The reason God chose to save any is to be found only within Himself.

A great book that deals with many of these issues is J.I. Packer's Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God.

And, if you venture over to The Highway website and click on "The Atonement of Christ", you will find a series of articles by Gary Long who deals in detail many/most of the typical biblical passages used by those who reject Limited Atonement their errors.
_________________________


simul iustus et peccator


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#52887 - Saturday, January 28, 2017 8:14 AM Re: Enough with the 4 pointers [Re: Pilgrim]
JesusFan Offline
Member

Registered: Thursday, January 26, 2017
Posts: 148
Loc: Macomb Michigan
Thank you, as I moved from Dispy to more of a Reformed outlook, and migrated from 4 to 5 pointer , as that seems to be moreconsistent with what scripture describes.

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