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#53331 - Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:50 AM Infant Baptism not found in Scripture?  
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I was just recently reading a texted podcast from Desiring God hosted by John Piper, and he was replying to a submitted question, and I am not surprised by his answer, it just puzzles me that so many who say that they are Baptist make the same claim, as given here from Piper ..''So, I had to test my inherited convictions by Scriptures over and over again during those ten years especially of higher education. And to this day, I have not been able to be persuaded that baptizing infants is warranted by the New Testament. That is the main reason that I am a Baptist. I don’t believe in infant baptism.''.... So my question is this, why is it that those who are ''Reformed Baptist'' and they use the 1689 LBCF, remove what is found in the WCF about Baptism, and then claim that it cannot be found in scripture as Piper and others have stated?

Last edited by Mckinley; Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:04 PM.

"A man may be theologically knowing and spiritually ignorant." STEPHEN CHARNOCK
#53332 - Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:06 AM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Mckinley]  
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We would not see water baptism as being circumcision being brought over intot he New Covenant as a sign of being among the Covenant people of God, as we would see the admonition in the NT being always upon believe in the Lord jesus, and then be saved, as the Baptism would be symbolic type , as an outward sign of what was already internally done by God on our behalf!
That is why we Baptists modify the WCF on this subject!

#53340 - Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:11 PM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: JesusFan]  
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Originally Posted by JesusFan
We would not see water baptism as being circumcision being brought over intot he New Covenant as a sign of being among the Covenant people of God,

I can't recall any paedobaptist holding that view. scratchchin That is more akin to those who embrace Federal Vision. Historic paedobaptists believe that baptism is the sign of the Covenant of Grace which was given to display the fulfillment of the Old Covenant administration of it in the New Covenant administration.


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#53341 - Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:19 AM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Good to know that, as my experience in discussing these with Presbyterians in the past in regards to water Baptism was that they saw infant baptism as bring over circumcision , as the visible sign of one now being part of the "Community of faith",,, We Baptists would see it as being an external sign/statement to all that Jesus has already saved us and that we now have been born again. This issue is to me not one to divide over, but to discuss and agree to disagree on this!

#53346 - Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:17 PM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: JesusFan]  
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Originally Posted by JesusFan
Good to know that, as my experience in discussing these with Presbyterians in the past in regards to water Baptism was that they saw infant baptism as bring over circumcision , as the visible sign of one now being part of the "Community of faith",,, We Baptists would see it as being an external sign/statement to all that Jesus has already saved us and that we now have been born again. This issue is to me not one to divide over, but to discuss and agree to disagree on this!

1. There are dozens of past discussions that have occurred on this board. Use the Search feature to find them.

2. Methinks you are confusing the information you have heard/read from Presbyterians. Children of believers are considered as "being part of the 'Community of Faith'". But their "part" is external, i.e., they stand as recipients of some of the benefits of that covenant, mainly the "means of grace" by which God calls His elect to repentance and faith in Christ. It is the same relationship all Israel was given (cf. Rom 2:25-29; 3:1). This is Paul's focus in 1Cor 7:14 where both the unbelieving spouse and the children of a mixed marriage are not "unclean" but "holy" agios, i.e., they are not in the same situation as the world but rather they are "set apart" because God has put them into the Church where the "means of grace"; preaching of the Gospel, prayers of the saints, and the example of the godly life of the believer exist.

3. When you speak of what Baptism MEANS, it must first be considered objectively vs. subjectively. In short, what IS baptism by definition. Whether or not that which baptism means applies to the one baptized is an entirely different matter. Objectively, baptism cannot mean it is "an outward sign of an inward reality", i.e., when a person is baptized, whether adult or infant, the baptism does not declare that person is saved. Admittedly, there are paedobaptists who hold to "presumptive regeneration", and assert that covenant children are to be deemed elect, regenerate, Christians, ad nauseam, until which time they openly repudiate the faith. I find this no less odious and fallacious as Tolerant Calvinism.

4. The main difference between credobaptists and paedobaptists is hermeneutical. It is a matter of continuity vs. discontinuity between the OT and NT.


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#53352 - Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:50 AM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Thanks for the clarification/explanation, and would just say that Baptism per the scriptures in my understanding would be the Christian submitting to the rite as saying in a public declaration that I have been saved, and am now part of the Body of Christ...

Now that the water baptism itself saved them, as not into baptismal regeneration, but that the saved in asserting to that truth of now belong to Christ and His church!

Baptists tens to use that Baptism as being now in local membership in a local church...

#53355 - Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:22 AM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: JesusFan]  
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Originally Posted by JesusFan
and would just say that Baptism per the scriptures in my understanding would be the Christian submitting to the rite as saying in a public declaration that I have been saved, and am now part of the Body of Christ...

Hmmmmm, but what is the definition of baptism in and of itself? OR, are you saying that baptism is nothing other than a means to allow a person to give a testimony of their alleged salvation and submitting to the "rite/ordinance" of baptism simply because professing believers in Scripture were baptized in water?


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#53356 - Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:19 PM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Water Baptism was/is the means by which the person officially declares to all now has been saved, and is now part of the church...

#53358 - Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:01 PM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: JesusFan]  
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Originally Posted by JesusFan
Water Baptism was/is the means by which the person officially declares to all now has been saved, and is now part of the church...

Soooooo, baptism is nothing in and of itself, as I suspected, but simply a tool for someone to use that shows that the person is saved and part of the church, correct?

IF that is true then it appears you are saying how many Baptists phrase it as, "Baptism is an outward sign of an inward reality (salvation). Would you agree with that 'definition'?


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#53361 - Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:49 AM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Yes, as we would see it as basically being the way to declare being saved now by death/resurrection of Jesus for us, as symbolized in going down/up in the water!

#53363 - Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:08 AM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: JesusFan]  
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Originally Posted by JesusFan
Yes, as we would see it as basically being the way to declare being saved now by death/resurrection of Jesus for us, as symbolized in going down/up in the water!

1. Sooooo, IF as you suggest that baptism IS "an outward sign of an inward reality (salvation)", then of necessity, ALL who are baptized ARE saved. Put another way, the visible (baptism) represents the reality (salvation) of the one baptized. I'm going to guess you aren't going to submit to that incontrovertible logic, right? giggle Thus, if that doesn't agree with you, then you are going to have to come up with another definition for baptism, one which is OBJECTIVE and ALWAYS means what it IS vs. subjectively, what it might be. Definitions need to be propositional.

2. Where in Scripture can one find one example of baptism by "immersion". scratchchin


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#53365 - Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:31 PM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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The act of the water Baptism is the person who has been saved displaying that fact by that act.... Again, already are saved, only believers would be doing it....

And when paul tells us that we go down into the water, and rise up out of the water, how can that not be immersion?

#53367 - Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:59 PM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: JesusFan]  
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Originally Posted by JesusFan
The act of the water Baptism is the person who has been saved displaying that fact by that act.... Again, already are saved, only believers would be doing it....

Again, IF as you believe, that baptism is "displaying that fact (the person who has been saved), then de facto, EVERYONE who is baptized MUST BE saved. So, do you understand what you are saying? To state it another way, ONLY truly regenerate believers are baptized. The problem is, that is categorically untrue. So, now what are you going to do? rolleyes2

Originally Posted by JesusFan
And when paul tells us that we go down into the water, and rise up out of the water, how can that not be immersion?

Could you supply the text, please? I hope you aren't going to be so foolish as to refer to Romans 6:2ff? The passage most often used to support immersion as the paradigm mode for baptism is Acts 8:36-39. And if you want to use that passage, I would be more than willing to discuss that with you exegetically. grin


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#53370 - Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:20 PM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Mckinley]  
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Let us let the LBC speak for itself.
http://www.spurgeon.org/catechis.php
1. Q. What is Baptism?
A. Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, instituted by Jesus Christ (Matt. 28:19), to be to the person baptised a sign of his fellowship with him, in his death, and burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12), of his being ingrafted into him (Gal. 3:27), of remission of sins (Mk. 1:4; Acts 22:16), and of his giving up himself to God through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4-5).
________________________________________
2. Q. To whom is Baptism to be administered?
A. Baptism is to be administered to all those who actually profess repentance towards God (Acts 2:38; Matt. 3:6; Mk. 16:16; Acts 8:12, 36-37; Acts 10:47-48), and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, and to none other.
3. Q. Are the infants of such as are professing to be baptised?
A. The infants of such as are professing believers are not to be baptised, because there is neither command nor example in the Holy Scriptures for their baptism (Exod. 23:13; Prov. 30:6).

4. Q. How is baptism rightly administered?
A. Baptism is rightly administered by immersion, or dipping the whole body of the person in water (Matt. 3:16; Jn. 3:23), in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, according to Christ's institution, and the practice of the apostles (Matt. 28:19-20), and not by sprinkling or pouring of water, or dipping some part of the body, after the tradition of men (Jn. 4:1-2; Acts 8:38-39).

I believe it is very important to emphasize the difference between two different groups that believe in ‘Believers Baptism’.
Dispensationalist, Mennonites do not appreciate God’s fundamental unity of the Bible and God’s covenant dealings with His people. Therefore they reject paedobaptist arguments from the covenants and regard the New Testament data as by itself conclusive for believer’s baptism. In other words they say that was just Old Testament teaching, this is the New Testament.
That group gets the scorn of the Reformed paedobaptist community and rightfully so.

Reformed Baptists on the other hand like their Reformed paedobaptist brothers and sisters recognize that the Old Testament is still relevant. However, believe that it supports their positions, not the Reformed paedobaptist position. There is a certain parallel between Old Testament circumcision and baptism (Romans 4:11; Col. 2:11-12). Both were rites or symbols induction into the covenant people of God. For more, I recommend ‘A Modern Exposition 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith.

#53371 - Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:57 AM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Tom]  
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Originally Posted by Tom
A. Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, instituted by Jesus Christ (Matt. 28:19), to be to the person baptised a sign of his fellowship with him, in his death, and burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12), of his being ingrafted into him (Gal. 3:27), of remission of sins (Mk. 1:4; Acts 22:16), and of his giving up himself to God through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4-5).

Yes, I am VERY familiar with what the LBCF says. grin And, the first Q&A is exactly what my problem is in this discussion. READ that Q&A again carefully!! Do you remember my contentions against the Dutch Reformed churches who use "The Form For the Baptism of Infants"? Both that Form and the LBCF make the declaration that baptism is a SIGN, i.e., it points to something and that something is the salvation of the recipient. Both teach "presumptive regeneration"; in the case of the Dutch Reformed churches and many in Presbyterian churches it is the presumption of salvation of infants and in the LBCF and with MANY (most?) Baptists it is the presumption of salvation of adults. Read the Q&A again..... According to the LBCF, baptism is to be a sign to the person baptized of: fellowship with Christ, being grafted in him (Christ), of remission of sins, and of his (recipient) commitment to live a holy life.

There is no escaping the conclusion that this view teaches and declares the recipient to be saved. And IF that is true, as I have previously stated above, then ALL who receive baptism MUST BE saved, because according to this teaching, baptism is a SIGN of the salvation owned by the one baptized. Now, if you object to the conclusion, which I know you do, or should, then fix the problem. grin And what is the problem? It is not that you and all Baptists believe that only adults are warranted to receive baptism. The problem is with the definition of baptism used. IF as you and most all Baptists will undoubtedly strongly reject the idea that ALL who submit to baptism are infallibly saved before baptism, then how can baptism be a SIGN of the recipients salvation? What is wrong is that the definition doesn't accord with reality, the truth that some (many?) who are baptized are NOT SAVED.

So, what is the solution? Again, a change needs to be made to the definition so that it represents something propositional, i.e., it is ALWAYS true regardless of who receives baptism, whether the person is regenerate and a true believer, one who is deceived into thinking he/she is saved, one who is deliberately feigning faith, or an infant. The "fix" is actually extremely simple... remove the subjective element about the recipient from the definition and substitute it with "true believer" so that it would read thus:

Quote
A. Baptism is an ordinance (sacrament) of the New Testament, instituted by Jesus Christ (Matt. 28:19), which is a sign of God's salvation in Christ to all who are true believers, who are united with Christ, in his death, and burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12), of being ingrafted into Christ (Gal. 3:27), and of the remission of sins (Mk. 1:4; Acts 22:16). For as the water in baptism washes away the filth from the body, so does Christ's blood wash away the filth of sin from the soul.

Do you see the advantage of such a statement vs. that of the LBCF, The Form for the Baptism of Infants, and all such statements? The definition is a propositional statement which is ALWAYS true regardless of who receives baptism. It doesn't say anything about that particular person's salvation, but rather it is a statement concerning the Gospel; God saves sinners. SUBJECTIVELY, these things are true for the recipient IF and ONLY IF the recipient has received the saving mercy and grace of God and has received Christ with a true living faith. I won't get into the matter of infants at this point but it is no less applicable to them too. The two sacraments/ordinances of the NT are baptism and the Lord's Supper and BOTH are only applicable to those who are believers. Those who are deceived or feign faith and who take of the Lord's Supper eat and drink condemnation upon themselves but the definition, what the Lord's Supper means is always true regardless of the spiritual state of those who partake of it.

To summarize in extremely brief form... Baptism is a visual proclamation of the Gospel; of God's salvation in Christ to all who believe. That salvation does NOT belong to those who necessarily PROFESS faith, but only to those who POSSESS faith.


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