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#53373 - Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:17 PM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Just to let you know, I posted that because all too often even Reformed Baptists misrepresent the LBCF and it is better to let it speak for itself.
I do not wish to debate the issue; mainly because although I agree with the LBCF, it is not an issue I want to divide over. Reformed Paedos and Reformed Credos, have a lot more in common than they disagree on. In fact, I as a Reformed Baptist, are closer to Reformed Paedos than I am to non-Reformed Baptists.
Everyone should make an informed decision based on proper understanding gathered from both sides. If there is one thing I have learned from years on The Highway, the issue of baptism is not a black and white issue.
I hope you understand my point.

Tom

#53374 - Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:09 PM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Mckinley]  
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Something to add.
Pilgrim, I thought I would add something to the discussion that I believe explains the Reformed Baptism a little more. You probably already know most of it already; but I thought it might be useful to the conversation.

I believe it is very important to emphasize the difference between two different groups that believe in ‘Believers Baptism’.
Dispensationalist, Mennonites do not appreciate God’s fundamental unity of the Bible and God’s covenant dealings with His people. Therefore they reject paedo-Baptist arguments from the covenants and regard the New Testament data as by itself conclusive for believer’s baptism. In other words they say that was just Old Testament teaching, this is the New Testament.
That group gets the scorn of the Reformed paedo-Baptist community and rightfully so.
Reformed Baptists on the other hand like their Reformed paedo-Baptist brothers and sisters recognize that the Old Testament is still relevant. However, believe that it supports their positions, not the Reformed paedo-Baptist position. There is a certain parallel between Old Testament circumcision and baptism (Romans 4:11; Col. 2:11-12). Both were rites or symbols induction into the covenant people of God. For more, I recommend ‘A Modern Exposition 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith by Samuel Waldron.

Tom

#53375 - Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:49 PM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Tom]  
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Yes Tom, you have posted that before here. grin I am familiar with Sam Waldron's exposition/commentary on the LBCF. In fact, I used to know Sam Waldron personally many years ago.


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#53376 - Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:08 PM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Tom]  
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You may believe the LBCF is correct in the section you referenced. But I responded to it by pointing out its inherent flaw(s). Yet, you refuse to return the favor and respond in kind and explain the LBCF's declaring the certainty of salvation of EVERY recipient of baptism to which you have publicly stated you accept as being true and consistent with the teaching of Scripture. It shouldn't be too difficult to show the statement is true from the Bible if it is true, right? And, like the apostle James, one can claim to have faith in something, but is that faith justified by its outward visible expression? Thus, IF this statement which you believe (have faith in) is true, then practically speaking it should be demonstrable in the lives of those baptized, i.e., they are visibly identifiable as Christians, since according to you and the LBCF, they ARE saved; united to Christ, etc. Further, that would be that EVERY member in every Baptist church is a Christian and thus every Baptist church is a "pure Church" consisting of only "wheat" and not one "tare" is included.

Of course baptism is a black and white issue. Either the truth is only adults can be baptized or both adults and children of believers can be baptized. For most baptists, only immersion is the acceptable mode of baptism but others believe any of the three modes (immersion, effusion, aspersion) is acceptable, yet others believe only aspersion is acceptable. The differences between the two groups and all the variations of them can't all be right. It is possible they are all wrong, but it is impossible they are all right. wink


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#53377 - Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:17 AM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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All who have come, been brought by Grace of God unto salvation shall be immersed in water baptism, and we so not just willy nilly allow for that to get done, as the candidate must present his case before an Elder in the church as to why we should consider them to have the act done. They will have to give the reason as ow being saved and walking with the Lord Jesus in obedience. that some are not really saved no doubt happens at times, but does not mean to disregard the methods/manner proscribed in the NT scriptures for to to be now done!

#53378 - Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:19 AM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Tom]  
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That statement as seen by Spurgeon would indeed be the biblical one!

#53379 - Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:26 AM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Would say that the NT position is best supported by believers Baptist model, but also would say that we in Christ can agree to disagree over this, as it needs to be addressed in charity towards one another!

And the person submitting in the water baptism is declaring salvation, so why would they not be able to be sure of that truth before immersion?

Are their not many who have been sprinkled as a baby, and yet never been saved later on then?

#53382 - Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:43 AM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: JesusFan]  
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I don't understand what that has to do with the DEFINITION of baptism? Nor, do I see how that is relevant to the LBCF statement concerning the spiritual state of those who are baptized. No rabbit trails, please. Stay on topic. grin


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#53384 - Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:56 AM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Water Baptisim is the external ordinance given to the local church where as the christian freely submits to it as acknowledgement of their new life in Christ now in operation, and we have to have the person able to explain and show that they do know/understand and have been born again!

#53385 - Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:06 AM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: JesusFan]  
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Originally Posted by JesusFan
Would say that the NT position is best supported by believers Baptist model, but also would say that we in Christ can agree to disagree over this, as it needs to be addressed in charity towards one another!

Agreed that the two sides can agree to disagree on the basic issues. However, most Baptist churches REQUIRE that a person be baptized as an adult AND by immersion or you will not be received into membership. This is a denial of sola fide since it makes baptism by immersion a requirement for justification. Oh no, you say!! Really? What is required for membership in the Church of Jesus Christ? ... a credible profession of faith and the testimony of a godly life. Read Jonathan Edwards' treatise on Church Membership.

Originally Posted by JesusFan
And the person submitting in the water baptism is declaring salvation, so why would they not be able to be sure of that truth before immersion?

Again, the subjectivity of baptism is irrelevant to a proper understanding of what baptism MEANS/IS, in and of itself sans the recipient, whether adult or infant. This is one of the major fallacies which most baptists fall into. They are obsessed with the person being baptized and have little interest and/or knowledge of baptism itself. The "declaring salvation" by an individual does not determine the definition of baptism. A Mercedes Benz is a Mercedes Benz regardless of who is driving it, whether a person who bought it from a dealer or a carjacker who stole it by force.

Originally Posted by JesusFan
Are their not many who have been sprinkled as a baby, and yet never been saved later on then?

Absolutely!! In fact, I would dare say that most infants who have been baptized remain in their sins and are under the just judgement of God. And, I would say that over history the same applies to adults who profess faith in Christ. Is it not true that in Israel all males were circumcised (sign of the OT covenant)? Is it not true that Moses told them that they need to circumcise the foreskins of their hearts (conversion to God)? Is it not also true that the overwhelming majority of Jews perished and continue to perish in unbelief? The SIGN OF THE COVENANT (of grace/Abrahamic) whether in the OT or NT does not declare the infallible salvation of the individual. It is a declaration of the Gospel which ever remains the same from its beginning to the end.


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#53387 - Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:42 PM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Mckinley]  
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I must be having a senior moment, because I don't remember posting that before. I only started reading Samuel Waldron a few years ago, but I sure like what I read from him. Pretty solid theologian. Another person I am beginning to really appreciate is Dr. Steven Lawsen.

Tom

Last edited by Tom; Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:50 PM.
#53388 - Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:22 PM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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I have always felt is really strange that we as Baptists usually allow for open communion, and yeti nsist on believers baptism for church membership, as are we not all who are saved part of the real Church, the Body of Christ? And would add that the NT gives to us that meaning we vest into it, as a visible identification as now being part of the Body of Christ...

#53420 - Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:49 PM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Pilgrim]  
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Hi Pilgrim
I hesitate to say anything, because I do not want this to become a debate between Paedo-Baptism and Credo-Baptism. This is the main reason why I waited so long before I responded to you.
However, I thought I would get some feedback from you for clarification on what you think the LBCF is actually saying.
Do you think the LBCF teaches that the sacraments work ex opere operato (I hope I didn't butcher that last word, lol) , creating faith in everyone who is baptized?
If so, I think you are stretching the language of the Confession too far. I do not have a problem with you saying the Confession could be worded better. I am not saying this is what you think the Confession is saying, just clarifying. This is something that has been used against the Confession before.
I thought I would add, that I have been trying to get hold of Samuel Waldron, to find out if he has anymore helpful insight into the matter of baptism in the LBCF. However, as of yet I have not been able to find an e-mail address or another way to communicate with him. Not that he would have the time to correspond with me anyway.


Tom

Last edited by Tom; Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:00 AM.
#53421 - Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:48 AM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Mckinley]  
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Something else I thought I needed to mention that is helpful to me at least, is the LBCF “Of Baptism” should be understood in light of the rest of the Confession.
For example Chapter 14, ‘Of Saving Faith. "The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word; by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened."

This paragraph shows that baptism is for the increasing and strengthening of faith. Such faith is wrought before baptism by the work of the Spirit via the Word. As I indicated earlier the chapter on baptism needs to be understood in light of this preceding chapter. When it says that baptism is a sign to the party baptized of his engrafting into Christ, etc., then it's with the assumption that the party baptized is in fact a believer.
This of course is not a guarantee that the party being baptized is a true believer. That of course is impossible to know with absolute certainty. Baptism and the Lord’s Supper cannot strengthen the faith of someone who is not a believer.

Tom

#53422 - Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:14 AM Re: Infant Baptism not found in Scripture? [Re: Tom]  
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Originally Posted by Tom
Hi Pilgrim

Do you think the LBCF teaches that the sacraments work ex opere operato (I hope I didn't butcher that last word, lol) , creating faith in everyone who is baptized?
If so, I think you are stretching the language of the Confession too far. I do not have a problem with you saying the Confession could be worded better. I am not saying this is what you think the Confession is saying, just clarifying. This is something that has been used against the Confession before.

1. The LBCF does not teach either baptism or the Lord's Supper are sacraments but rather ordinances, i.e., nothing spiritual actually happens in either.

2. No, I do not believe that "the LBCF teaches that the sacraments work ex opere operato creating faith in everyone who is baptized?" for a couple of reasons:
a. See above
b. The Bible nowhere teaches that baptism creates faith in an individual, whether adult or infant. And the framers of the LBCF certainly did not even entertain such foolishness.

Now, I'm wondering how many times I need to ask this question again before I'll get an answer from you or JesusFan or some other member who is a Baptist. The LCBF states:

Quote
1. Q. What is Baptism?
A. Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, instituted by Jesus Christ (Matt. 28:19), to be to the person baptised a sign of his fellowship with him, in his death, and burial, and resurrection (Rom. 6:3; Col. 2:12), of his being ingrafted into him (Gal. 3:27), of remission of sins (Mk. 1:4; Acts 22:16), and of his giving up himself to God through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4-5).

Notice that the LBCF mentions 3 objective things which it says baptism IS, i.e., these things are TRUE in regard to the person baptized:

1. fellowship (partaker) with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection
2. being ingrafted (union with) into Christ
3.remission of sins (justification)

The undeniable teaching here is that baptism IS a SIGN, an indication of, that which points to something, etc. and in this case, to the salvation of the recipient. Thus, according to the wording of the LBCF, EVERYONE who is baptized IS SAVED. Doubtless, you and Sam Waldron and a host of other Baptists will quickly deny that everyone who is baptized is infallibly saved. But that is exactly what the LBCF teaches and the overwhelming majority of Baptists will confess to be true. For, ONLY believers are to be baptized and baptism is the SIGN of that salvation which already exists in the one being baptized. So, the question remains, Does baptism MEAN that the recipient of baptism IS SAVED? or not? If not, then what does baptism mean; what is that word's definition, which is always true?


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