Donations for the month of September


We have received a total of $130 in donations towards our goal of $175.


Don't want to use PayPal? Go HERE


Search

Member Spotlight
John_C
John_C
Mississippi Gulf Coast
Posts: 1,742
Joined: September 2001
Show All Member Profiles 
Forum Statistics
Forums30
Topics6,504
Posts50,605
Members918
Most Online373
Mar 5th, 2017
Top Posters(All Time)
Pilgrim 13,263
Tom 3,257
chestnutmare 2,852
J_Edwards 2,615
Wes 1,856
John_C 1,742
RJ_ 1,582
MarieP 1,578
gotribe 1,057
Top Posters(30 Days)
Tom 26
Pilgrim 20
John_C 3
Recent Posts
KJO Propaganda?
by Pilgrim. Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:03 PM
Exultant with joy and at the same time sorrowful
by chestnutmare. Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:19 AM
By our fall in Adam
by chestnutmare. Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:24 PM
Request from my Pastor
by Tom. Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:55 PM
Jubilee
by John_C. Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:09 PM
Antifa thugs in Florida
by Pilgrim. Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:48 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
#54096 - Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:14 PM cosmic meatball experience  
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 178
AJ Castellitto Offline
Member
AJ Castellitto  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 178
NJ/PA
I listened to an nrc sermon today and it got me a bit riled up..... Then I read this again.... Feel better now

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2015/04/welcome-to-netherlands-reformed-church.html?m=1

Last edited by AJ Castellitto; Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:14 PM.
#54098 - Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:47 AM Re: cosmic meatball experience [Re: AJ Castellitto]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,263
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,263
NH, USA
The article is basically quite good and accurate in describing the "imbalance" of the NRC, of which I am personally familiar with. I do have a concern, however, that the author comes close to throwing out "experimentalism" altogether, despite the fact that he admits that it has a long history in the Reformed churches. Certainly, one cannot read Calvin and see the depth of spiritual affections throughout. The symbol of the "heart" is often displayed in regard to John Calvin. Further along, the Puritans were masters of the soul because they knew of its life like no other group in church history aside from Christ and the Apostles. Their sermons are filled with experimentalism and are so loved for it as it flows out of the pages of Scripture. Easy Believism has been around for quite some time and has grown in popularity since its inception. Just a quick look at some of the discussions on this very board will demonstrate that the damnable fallacy of simply giving mental assent to 3 or 4 statements of alleged biblical truth and reciting a prayer or mouthing a particular catch phrase results in one's eternal salvation. The dynamics of conversion, the natural and infallible result of Spirit-wrought regeneration, are externalized as something a person does, vs. what the Spirit has done, which are perceptible to both the recipient and others (Jh 3;7,8). The regeneration is sovereign, secret and silent [The wind bloweth where it will, ...but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:], but the resulting conversion is experienced [and thou hearest the voice thereof].

True saving faith is "fiducia", i.e., it involves the whole man; mind/intellect, emotions/affections, and will. You cannot remove any of the three for like a three-legged stool, it will fall over. The author says he has benefited from his Lutheran friends by just looking at the cross, the atoning work of Christ and His perfect righteousness for assurance. That is true if you leave off the "just". For again, true assurance does not come from a mental assent of certain propositional statements, regardless if they are true or not. True assurance comes from another three-legged stool, 1) God's testimony to our soul that we are His (Rom 8:16), 2) a transformed life that has been delivered out of darkness and this world into the light where the child of God strives after holiness and righteousness by the power of the indwelling Spirit (Rom 8:5ff; Eph 1:3,4; 2:10; Phil 2:11,12, et al). 3) The testimony of those of the church family who have been redeemed by the mercy, grace and love of God in Christ Jesus. These are able to see the outward manifestations and changes of not only themselves but also those who make a profession of faith.

It is true that the NRC and a few similar churches have fallen into an extreme and thus are to be faulted not only for their erroneous views but also the immeasurable damage that they have done and continue to do to God's chosen people and unconverted sinners alike. Remember, "extremes" are distortions of things which are true and good. It is an ever present danger to throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water when we are confronted with an extreme. Wisdom is a necessarily quality and virtue we should covet and practice every moment of every day, looking toward Christ Who sits upon His throne in heaven and relying upon the Spirit Who dwells within to help us walk that narrow path so that we make right judgments, both in regard to ourselves and others.


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#54099 - Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:19 PM Re: cosmic meatball experience [Re: AJ Castellitto]  
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 178
AJ Castellitto Offline
Member
AJ Castellitto  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 178
NJ/PA
Hi pilgrim, I didn't read your whole reply yet, but I was thinking how I don't agree with every implied sentiment in the blog piece... I still consider myself a strict Sabbatarian.... I also know there is good Biblical warrant for head covering. I also know there is a true spirit wrought experiential faith of all who call Jesus Lord..... Thanks for your reply and I will respond to it, probably with complete affirmation

Last edited by AJ Castellitto; Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:25 PM.
#54100 - Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:24 PM Re: cosmic meatball experience [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 178
AJ Castellitto Offline
Member
AJ Castellitto  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 178
NJ/PA
Originally Posted by Pilgrim
The article is basically quite good and accurate in describing the "imbalance" of the NRC, of which I am personally familiar with. I do have a concern, however, that the author comes close to throwing out "experimentalism" altogether, despite the fact that he admits that it has a long history in the Reformed churches. Certainly, one cannot read Calvin and see the depth of spiritual affections throughout. The symbol of the "heart" is often displayed in regard to John Calvin. Further along, the Puritans were masters of the soul because they knew of its life like no other group in church history aside from Christ and the Apostles. Their sermons are filled with experimentalism and are so loved for it as it flows out of the pages of Scripture. Easy Believism has been around for quite some time and has grown in popularity since its inception. Just a quick look at some of the discussions on this very board will demonstrate that the damnable fallacy of simply giving mental assent to 3 or 4 statements of alleged biblical truth and reciting a prayer or mouthing a particular catch phrase results in one's eternal salvation. The dynamics of conversion, the natural and infallible result of Spirit-wrought regeneration, are externalized as something a person does, vs. what the Spirit has done, which are perceptible to both the recipient and others (Jh 3;7,8). The regeneration is sovereign, secret and silent [The wind bloweth where it will, ...but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:], but the resulting conversion is experienced [and thou hearest the voice thereof].

True saving faith is "fiducia", i.e., it involves the whole man; mind/intellect, emotions/affections, and will. You cannot remove any of the three for like a three-legged stool, it will fall over. The author says he has benefited from his Lutheran friends by just looking at the cross, the atoning work of Christ and His perfect righteousness for assurance. That is true if you leave off the "just". For again, true assurance does not come from a mental assent of certain propositional statements, regardless if they are true or not. True assurance comes from another three-legged stool, 1) God's testimony to our soul that we are His (Rom 8:16), 2) a transformed life that has been delivered out of darkness and this world into the light where the child of God strives after holiness and righteousness by the power of the indwelling Spirit (Rom 8:5ff; Eph 1:3,4; 2:10; Phil 2:11,12, et al). 3) The testimony of those of the church family who have been redeemed by the mercy, grace and love of God in Christ Jesus. These are able to see the outward manifestations and changes of not only themselves but also those who make a profession of faith.

It is true that the NRC and a few similar churches have fallen into an extreme and thus are to be faulted not only for their erroneous views but also the immeasurable damage that they have done and continue to do to God's chosen people and unconverted sinners alike. Remember, "extremes" are distortions of things which are true and good. It is an ever present danger to throw the proverbial baby out with the bath water when we are confronted with an extreme. Wisdom is a necessarily quality and virtue we should covet and practice every moment of every day, looking toward Christ Who sits upon His throne in heaven and relying upon the Spirit Who dwells within to help us walk that narrow path so that we make right judgments, both in regard to ourselves and others.


BigThumbUp BigThumbUp BigThumbUp Amen! I agree with every word, thank you!

#54101 - Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:40 PM Re: cosmic meatball experience [Re: AJ Castellitto]  
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 178
AJ Castellitto Offline
Member
AJ Castellitto  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 178
NJ/PA
I will risk your criticism of this source but if you agree with this criteria is the NRC a cult?


Social aspects of cult-like behavior
For a group to be a cult in the social sense, many of the following characteristics would have to be present. For a group to be a cult in the doctrinal sense, essentials (in this case of the Christian faith) would have to be violated. Some of the characteristics are listed below.

Submission:
Complete, almost unquestioned trust in the leadership.
Leaders are often seen as prophets, apostles, or special individuals with unusual connections to God. This helps a person give themselves over psychologically to trusting someone else for their spiritual welfare.
Increased submission to the leadership is rewarded with additional responsibilities and/or roles, and/or praises, increasing the importance of the person within the group.
Exclusivity
Their group is the only true religious system, or one of the few true remnants of God's people.
Persecution complex
Us against them mentality. Therefore, when someone (inside or outside of the group) corrects the group in doctrine and/or behavior, it is interpreted as persecution, which then is interpreted as validation.
Control
Control of members' actions and thinking through repeated indoctrination and/or threats of loss of salvation, or a place to live, or receiving curses from God, etc.
Isolation
Minimizing contact of church members with those outside the group. This facilitates a further control over the thinking and practices of the members by the leadership.
Love Bombing
Showing great attention and love to a person in the group by others in the group, to help transfer emotional dependence to the group.
Special Knowledge
Instructions and/or knowledge are sometimes said to be received by a leader(s) from God. This leader then informs the members.
The Special Knowledge can be received through visions, dreams, or new interpretations of sacred scriptures such as the Bible.
Indoctrination
The teachings of the group are repeatedly drilled into the members, but the indoctrination usually occurs around Special Knowledge.
Salvation
Salvation from the judgment of God is maintained through association and/or submission with the group, its authority, and/or its Special Knowledge.
Group Think
The group's coherence is maintained by the observance to policies handed down from those in authority.
There is an internal enforcement of policies by members who reward "proper" behavior, and those who perform properly are rewarded with further inclusion and acceptance by the group.
Cognitive Dissonance
Avoidance of critical thinking and/or maintaining logically impossible beliefs and/or beliefs that are inconsistent with other beliefs held by the group.
Avoidance of and/or denial of any facts that might contradict the group's belief system.
Shunning
Those who do not keep in step with group policies are shunned and/or expelled.
Gender Roles
Control of gender roles and definitions.
Severe control of gender roles sometimes leads to sexual exploitation.
Appearance Standards
Often a common appearance is required and maintained. For instance, women might wear prairie dresses, and/or their hair in buns, and/or no makeup, and/or the men might all wear white short-sleeved shirts, and/or without beards, or all wear beards.


Doctrinal aspects of a cult
Since CARM is a Christian-based ministry (statement of faith) it holds to the essential doctrines of the Christian faith. Therefore, deviation from any of the doctrinal essentials as defined by the Bible would qualify a group as being a cult. The essentials of the Christian faith, as revealed in Scripture, are as follows:

The Deity of Christ
Jesus is God in flesh (John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14). See also John 1:1, 14; 8:24; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8
Salvation by grace through faith alone
Romans 3:28; 4:1-5; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8-9; Galatians 3:21;5:3-5
The physical resurrection of Christ
John 2:19-21; 1 Corinthians 15:14, 17; John 20:25-28; Luke 24:39
The Gospel, as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus
1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Galatians 1:8-9
Monotheism
Exodus 20:3-6; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8
Trinity
Though the Trinity is not explicitly defined in Scripture and stated to be a necessity, it is a logically necessary doctrine since it properly describes the true nature of God.
Matt. 3:16-17; 28:19; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Ephesians 4:4-6
Virgin Birth
The Virgin birth is an essential to the Christian faith since without it, the true nature of the incarnation of Christ could not be scripturally maintained and it could not be said that Jesus is deity.
Matthew 1:23

https://carm.org/signs-practices-of-a-cult

#54102 - Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:06 PM Re: cosmic meatball experience [Re: AJ Castellitto]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,263
Pilgrim Offline
Head Honcho
Pilgrim  Offline

Head Honcho

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 13,263
NH, USA
The NRC does not fit the criteria of a cult. nope It may have similar aspects that constitute a sect, but I don't see it qualifying for that dishonor either. I view the NRC as a denomination which has unfortunately gotten off the 'narrow path' by creating its own path which is far narrower than what Scripture teaches. They have made morbid introspection a virtue... read works by Philpot, Harrington, &co. They extol having a lack of assurance to the point that its members boast of not having it as if it is a mark of spiritual maturity, an oxymoron if there ever was one. I could go on with listing many of their other errors, but you know them very well, even more so than I do. wink

I'll never forget the time when I was a 'student for the ministry' that I was invited to lunch with 2 Elders from the local NRC congregation. These elders went on and on and on about how sinful they were and how they mourned over their condition, so much so that I was expecting them to tear off their black suits and put on sackcloth and ashes. But when I happened to bring up a particular sin I perceived in them; no mention of the Lord Christ and His sufficiency and willingness to save ALL who 'labored and heavy laden' and came to Him by faith for full remission of sins, they exploded in anger. "How dare YOU accuse ME of sin...!!!" was the response I received from one of them. All that tearful humility and lamenting over their personal sins was gone in a flash. Suddenly, they were the holiest men on earth who were above judgment. igiveup Yes, the veneer was removed and their true self was exposed for all to see. If one was to ask if they believed that their beloved NRC was infallible, they would immediately confess that it wasn't. But if you asked them to mention just one error that the NRC believes/teaches, they would dismiss even the notion that any error exists either in doctrine or practice. The hypocrisy rooted in sinful pride is what I see as one of the root causes of much of the problems that exist in the NRC. But my anger is pricked when I see how many poor needy sinners are relegated to spiritual chains and thrown into a prison of doubt, fear and hopelessness. mad


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#54103 - Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:16 PM Re: cosmic meatball experience [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 178
AJ Castellitto Offline
Member
AJ Castellitto  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 178
NJ/PA
Originally Posted by Pilgrim
The NRC does not fit the criteria of a cult. nope It may have similar aspects that constitute a sect, but I don't see it qualifying for that dishonor either. I view the NRC as a denomination which has unfortunately gotten off the 'narrow path' by creating its own path which is far narrower than what Scripture teaches. They have made morbid introspection a virtue... read works by Philpot, Harrington, &co. They extol having a lack of assurance to the point that its members boast of not having it as if it is a mark of spiritual maturity, an oxymoron if there ever was one. I could go on with listing many of their other errors, but you know them very well, even more so than I do. wink

I'll never forget the time when I was a 'student for the ministry' that I was invited to lunch with 2 Elders from the local NRC congregation. These elders went on and on and on about how sinful they were and how they mourned over their condition, so much so that I was expecting them to tear off their black suits and put on sackcloth and ashes. But when I happened to bring up a particular sin I perceived in them; no mention of the Lord Christ and His sufficiency and willingness to save ALL who 'labored and heavy laden' and came to Him by faith for full remission of sins, they exploded in anger. "How dare YOU accuse ME of sin...!!!" was the response I received from one of them. All that tearful humility and lamenting over their personal sins was gone in a flash. Suddenly, they were the holiest men on earth who were above judgment. igiveup Yes, the veneer was removed and their true self was exposed for all to see. If one was to ask if they believed that their beloved NRC was infallible, they would immediately confess that it wasn't. But if you asked them to mention just one error that the NRC believes/teaches, they would dismiss even the notion that any error exists either in doctrine or practice. The hypocrisy rooted in sinful pride is what I see as one of the root causes of much of the problems that exist in the NRC. But my anger is pricked when I see how many poor needy sinners are relegated to spiritual chains and thrown into a prison of doubt, fear and hopelessness. mad
thank you Jeff, you are a true servant, I really appreciate your wisdom on these matters

#54104 - Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:32 PM Re: cosmic meatball experience [Re: AJ Castellitto]  
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 178
AJ Castellitto Offline
Member
AJ Castellitto  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 178
NJ/PA
....P.S. My wife thinks the NRC is at minimum a sect, but more like a cult, lol.....

#54106 - Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:57 PM Re: cosmic meatball experience [Re: AJ Castellitto]  
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 178
AJ Castellitto Offline
Member
AJ Castellitto  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 178
NJ/PA
Quote
The people attending were dressed sharply, with the women all putting on what only can be described as a hat fashion show. I had not realized how fashionable and different women's hat-wear could be. I was informed by my friend that a shirt and tie was fine, suit jacket not required. Yes, it turned out I was one of the only people not wearing a suit jacket. So there I was, without a suit jacket, carrying a Bible. I might as well have worn a Led Zeppelin t-shirt carrying a Hello Kitty lunchbox.
rofl


Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 16 guests, and 131 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Ron, billmcginnis, Bucer, Petey Bad, Derwood
918 Registered Users
Shout Box
September
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
Today's Birthdays
Wolf Hunter
Popular Topics(Views)
623,348 Gospel truth
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.066s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 2.6269 MB (Peak: 2.9166 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-09-24 08:43:56 UTC