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#54070 - Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:20 PM Offertory Dance at Church of the Redeemer, NYC  
Joined: Sep 2003
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chestnutmare Offline
Annie Oakley
chestnutmare  Offline
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Here is a look at what goes on at Tim Keller's Church. Offertory Dance

Last edited by Pilgrim; Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:34 PM.

The Chestnut Mare
All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by frost.
- - - -JRR Tolkien "Lord of the Rings"
#54076 - Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:43 AM Re: Offertory Dance at Church of the Redeemer, NYC [Re: chestnutmare]  
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AJ Castellitto Offline
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AJ Castellitto  Offline
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NJ/PA
I watched the first 10 seconds..... doah

#54079 - Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:19 PM Re: Offertory Dance at Church of the Redeemer, NYC [Re: chestnutmare]  
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goldenoldie Offline
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goldenoldie  Offline
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Masschusetts, USA
rofl


In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
#54116 - Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:36 AM Re: Offertory Dance at Church of the Redeemer, NYC [Re: chestnutmare]  
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ATulipNotADaisy Offline
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ATulipNotADaisy  Offline
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I don't understand how anyone could think this is Biblical worship.

#54117 - Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:51 AM Re: Offertory Dance at Church of the Redeemer, NYC [Re: ATulipNotADaisy]  
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Pilgrim Offline
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Pilgrim  Offline

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Originally Posted by ATulipNotADaisy
I don't understand how anyone could think this is Biblical worship.

I'm confident you do understand how this could happen. grin All that needs to occur is for one to discard the biblical truth that GOD determines how He is to be worshipped by His creation and substitute their own imaginative ideas. One's doctrine of Scripture and thus of God will determine and be expressed in how they 'worship'.

Quote
"All men become like the objects of their worship. Our inward character is being silently moulded by our view of God and our conception of him. Christian character is the fruit of Christian worship; pagan character the fruit of pagan religion; semi-Christian character the fruit of a half-true understanding of God. The principle holds good for us all: we become like what we worship ­ for worse or for better. 'They that make them are like unto them' (Psa. 115:8)." — Maurice Roberts


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simul iustus et peccator

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#54118 - Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:46 PM Re: Offertory Dance at Church of the Redeemer, NYC [Re: chestnutmare]  
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Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
Needs to get a Life

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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
I can tell you that it was not until God started showing me Reformed thought I was not aware that there was anything wrong with things like dance, drama etc., during a worship service.
A person can have a love for God and His Word and because of the influence of pastors and teachers they can believe how they are worshipping on a given Sunday is perfectly legit.
Yet, when one starts to understand biblical Reformed thought, their whole way of thinking slowly changes.
In my case, having been a former Charismatic that change was very gradual. In some ways, there are times when I am talking to friends and family members that are still caught up in that system, I can hardly relate to them. Yet, thinking back how they think is no different than the way I used to think on the matter.
So, there are times I want to learn how to relate to them in a manner that might communicate the truth I know now. Yet I am finding that although I have had some success at this, many of them almost look at me as backslidden.

Tom

#54119 - Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:00 PM Re: Offertory Dance at Church of the Redeemer, NYC [Re: chestnutmare]  
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Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
I thought I would give an example of what I am talking about, that demonstrates the thought from a "Charismatic perspective". My brother posted something written by his pastor today that I think is representative of how I used to think as a Pentecostal that coloured my thought.
Quote
A Note from Pastor Owen…
I have never heard a good excuse at how the modern Church has lost touch with the Holy Spirit. The early Church understood the whole matter and so prayed with those who were baptized in water to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The initiation process had three elements…exorcism from evil spirits…baptism in water and baptism in the Holy Spirit. Each Gospel and the book of Acts refer to both baptisms. The Church baptises with water and Jesus baptises with the Holy Spirit. (See Matt. 3:11; Mark 1:18; Luke 3:16; John 1:33; Acts 1:5 and 11:16.) Have you been baptised in the Spirit? Don’t delay receiving this important experience. This is the power that blesses the Church. All over the world people are being baptised in the Holy Spirit. It is foundational to powerful Church life that the members all have their own Pentecost experience.

In Charismatic thought (although there are exceptions); unlike us who believe that if one does not have the Holy Spirit, one is not saved. They believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a “second blessing’ after water baptism.
What does this have to do with the subject at hand?
Although it is true that things like dance are not just in Charismatic worship services. Never the less, it is part and parcel to how one views the issues related to worship. For the most part, even in non-Charismatic Churches today, maybe even without knowing it they have incorporated their style of worship. This includes the subjective gifts such as dance, singing, etc… as instruments of worship. Rather than worshipping God in the objective way He prescribes in His Word; otherwise known as “The Regulative Principle of Worship.” I might add that Charismatic worship goes a lot further than the ‘Normative Principle of Worship’, that many who do not follow the RPW supposedly believe in.

Last edited by Tom; Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:02 PM.
#54120 - Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:50 PM Re: Offertory Dance at Church of the Redeemer, NYC [Re: Tom]  
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Pilgrim Offline
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Pilgrim  Offline

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NH, USA
"subjective gifts such as dance, singing, etc.... as instruments of worship." drop

Are those "gifts" found in Scripture, e.g., 4th Corinthians 32:8 from the Devised Standard Version? [Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

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#54121 - Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:57 AM Re: Offertory Dance at Church of the Redeemer, NYC [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Apr 2001
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Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
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Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
I see you caught my meaning. I used the term "instruments" mainly because I could not think of a better word. I could have used the word "part".

Tom

#54122 - Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:14 AM Re: Offertory Dance at Church of the Redeemer, NYC [Re: Tom]  
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Pilgrim Offline
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Pilgrim  Offline

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NH, USA
Originally Posted by Tom
I see you caught my meaning. I used the term "instruments" mainly because I could not think of a better word. I could have used the word "part".

I see you didn't catch my meaning because I couldn't care less about "instruments" but rather I was amused over the mention of GIFTS, which charismatics and pentecostals make such a big deal over. And secondarily, I chuckled over the use of SUBJECTIVE gifts, as if there are objective gifts. dizzy


[Linked Image]

simul iustus et peccator

[Linked Image]
#54123 - Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:22 AM Re: Offertory Dance at Church of the Redeemer, NYC [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,257
Tom Offline
Needs to get a Life
Tom  Offline
Needs to get a Life

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,257
Kelowna, British Columbia, Can...
The reason they include these things is basically because they believe that if God has given someone a gift such as the ability to sing or dance well. We therefore should use that gift to worship Him. In other words they believe not just what is in Scripture, but that which He has gifted people with.
Tom

#54132 - Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:23 PM Re: Offertory Dance at Church of the Redeemer, NYC [Re: Pilgrim]  
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 56
ATulipNotADaisy Offline
Journeyman
ATulipNotADaisy  Offline
Journeyman

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 56
FL
Originally Posted by Pilgrim
Originally Posted by ATulipNotADaisy
I don't understand how anyone could think this is Biblical worship.

I'm confident you do understand how this could happen. grin All that needs to occur is for one to discard the biblical truth that GOD determines how He is to be worshipped by His creation and substitute their own imaginative ideas. One's doctrine of Scripture and thus of God will determine and be expressed in how they 'worship'.

Quote
"All men become like the objects of their worship. Our inward character is being silently moulded by our view of God and our conception of him. Christian character is the fruit of Christian worship; pagan character the fruit of pagan religion; semi-Christian character the fruit of a half-true understanding of God. The principle holds good for us all: we become like what we worship ­ for worse or for better. 'They that make them are like unto them' (Psa. 115:8)." — Maurice Roberts

#54133 - Sun Jul 23, 2017 2:33 PM Re: Offertory Dance at Church of the Redeemer, NYC [Re: chestnutmare]  
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 56
ATulipNotADaisy Offline
Journeyman
ATulipNotADaisy  Offline
Journeyman

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 56
FL
Yes, I do understand how this could happen, I didn't communicate what I meant very well. I don't see how Christians who are earnestly seeking to worship God could condone this and maybe they don't. Maybe they have already left this church after failing to achieve the return to RPW. I also question how the pastor, who is held to a higher standard, could condone this. One would have to be seriously backslidden, in which case they would have discarded Biblical Truth as you said, or yikes no regeneration has ever taken place. Only God knows for sure.


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